TN Deer Population

[MickThompson]

LBL seems to old alot of mature

Cades Cove holds a lot of mature bucks in East TN

Cades Coves is the only patch of early successional cover of consequence aside from the balds in the National Park. You're seeing bucks and does literally coming from miles around to get access to food and cover resources that can be found nowhere else in the park. How many deer or bears do you see anywhere else in the park?

It also takes absolutely no hunting to produce what Cades cove has under the current forest conditions- I'd think most us us would hardly find that an ideal situation.

 

[TheLBLman]

You could go to a 1 buck limit, statewide week long gun hunt, and move Tennessee to Illinois and the vast majority of hunters still would never see a 160" deer from the stand

This is actually more true than not.
160-plus bucks are not "common" even in the big "trophy destination" states.
They just existing in much higher numbers, albeit still a low percentage of bucks, in certain locales of certain states.

Ironically, it may be the two TN counties having the most "potential" for growing bucks with 160" plus racks are Shelby & Davidson counties. Go figure. These two counties would likely top the list of being two counties most TN hunters would least care to hunt.

 

[BSK]

You could go to a 1 buck limit, statewide week long gun hunt, and move Tennessee to Illinois and the vast majority of hunters still would never see a 160" deer from the stand

This. Exactly.

 

[BSK]

As said previously, having run camera censuses all over the Southeast (and outside the Southeast), where I see the most 150+ bucks is in areas that have a couple of features in common: 1) nearby access to very productive large-scale agriculture grown in higher quality soils, 2) very difficult ground to hunt - either in limited access or limited visibility or both, 3) limited hunter density. Put those three together - high volume of high-quality foods in summer, areas that are difficult to hunt, and areas not crawling with hunters - and you have the best chance for growing 150+ bucks.

 

[TheLBLman]

Put those three together - high volume of high-quality foods in summer, areas that are difficult to hunt, and areas not crawling with hunters - and you have the best chance for growing 150+ bucks.

I would even add another "twist" to this.
Not just areas that are "difficult" to hunt, but areas most hunters find "undesirable" to hunt.

Some of the biggest bucks now are being grown in "urban" areas, where the deer spend most their time in a small patch of habitat surrounded by subdivisions, interstates, and industry. Many these areas offer a smorgasbord of quality deer foods (even without farmers' agriculture).

But most of us go hunting for reasons other than just the very best odds at a high scoring buck. Just give me some "fair" odds, even "low" odds, but give me a hunt more in a wilderness area, void of the urban industrial sounds, smells, and eyesores.

Many believe President's Island (Shelby County, TN) to be the very best public land opportunity in TN for taking a high scoring buck. After years of forfeiting many other public land hunts for the opportunity to hunt President's Island, my PI hunt made me sick to my stomach with the putrid smells and sounds of the surrounding industry & downtown Memphis. It was like deer hunting in a landfill. Not my cup of tea.

 

[Snake]

This is actually more true than not.
160-plus bucks are not "common" even in the big "trophy destination" states.
They just existing in much higher numbers, albeit still a low percentage of bucks, in certain locales of certain states.

Ironically, it may be the two TN counties having the most "potential" for growing bucks with 160" plus racks are Shelby & Davidson counties. Go figure. These two counties would likely top the list of being two counties most TN hunters would least care to hunt.

Yep

 

[Snake]

Alot of interestingly responses but some I tend to disagree with somewhat. Agriculture definitely helps in terms to size of deer and antlers but there are exceptions . Age to me has a lot to do with a buck reaching his potential. Hunters in the mountains have produced some really great bucks some over the 160 " with a field not within probably 50 miles . They reached that by being fully mature. Genetics also plays a role that being evident from these deer farms . Tennessee has come a long way these last few years as far as bigger scoring bucks due to management . A buck can have all he wants as far as nutrition and the best genetics but if he don't last until he fully matures he won't reach his full potential.

 

[TheLBLman]

A buck can have all he wants as far as nutrition and the best genetics but if he don't last until he full matures he won't reach his full potential.

True.
But also true, most TN bucks that do reach full maturity just happen to be those with below average antler genetics. They reach their full potential
Those with above average antler genetics seldom live past 3 1/2 yrs of age.
Most are killed at 2 1/2. (At least in most of TN).

 

[CHRIS WILSON]

Those with above average antler genetics seldom live past 3 1/2 yrs of age.
Most are killed at 2 1/2. (At least in most of TN).

Especially on public land.

 

[TheLBLman]

Especially on public land.

I'm not so sure this is always the case.

The absolute worst hunter-induced antler high-grading I've seen happens on areas with antler restrictions. Yes, some of these areas are public lands, but most are large tracts of private property.

That said, other than to eliminate or significantly reduce deer hunting, it may be more practical to reduce the amount of antler high grading on private lands than it would be on public.

Relatively few hunters afield can quickly distinguish a 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 from a 5 1/2 or older buck, and 120-class antlers on a 2 1/2 appear much, much larger antlers than those same antlers "appear" on a 5 1/2. A hunter is typically going to see they antlers and quickly shoot. Never mind that most don't really care as much about the age as they do the antlers, yet they are self-defeating what they claim they want most, much larger antlers.

It is possible to have a group of intense hunters to learn and agree to only shoot bucks 5 1/2 or older, no matter the size of their antlers. But then, their success at saving those top-end younger bucks is limited, simply because "their" bucks will roam, often miles one direction, off that intensely "managed" property. Even if you have 20,000 acres, the majority of "your" bucks may "rut roam" outside your property, and the core areas of most may be within 1/2 mile of your perimeter boundaries.

I mentioned 20,000 acres because this is the approximate size of the Ames Plantation.
20,000 acres is about 31 square miles, so one might think you could contain most rutting bucks on that? Think again.

Imagine the configuration somewhat as a rectangled tract 3 miles wide x 10 miles long. No buck would ever be farther than 1.5 miles from a boundary line. And since most would not be just standing in the middle, roughly two-thirds of the bucks would normally be standing less than a mile from a boundary. A mile becomes nothing for a rutting buck, really nothing for seasonal range shifting.

 

[Dean Parisian]

Some tremendous truisms espoused here. I appreciate everyone's time and input. Every time I go by BNA exit off of I-40 I get to recall in memory that massive buck with his 2 monster buddies in the ditch about 600 yards from the freeway exit to BNA. Two years later that patch of timber is a freeway exit construction site My small farm in Cumberland County exemplifies all of the points being brought out. Last shot a deer on my TN land in 2006. The neighbor feeds corn year around to "KEEP" his deer local and of course they get their bucks every year. Baiting in Cumberland County like in most places I would think in TN is as common as blue sky. Am a couple of miles from Catoosa and Fairfield Glade so that big woods and golf course habitat has a chance of allowing a good one to get some age on him. Not certain how many bucks are killed on Fairfield Glade out the back door! The business of killing big deer isn't going away. Only the amount of habitat.

 

[TheLBLman]

Every time I go by BNA exit off of I-40 I get to recall in memory that massive buck with his 2 monster buddies in the ditch about 600 yards from the freeway exit to BNA. Two years later that patch of timber is a freeway exit construction site.

Yep. Best chance for a 160-plus buck in TN is in a place you and I would not enjoy hunting.
And also in a place where one would have to con the landowner to hunt there, and/or just hunt there anyway illegally.

I cannot imagine "hunting" where jet airlines were coming & going every couple minutes on a couple hundred yards above my head. But the deer don't seem to mind it. Go figure.

 

[Dean Parisian]

To augment that point, I remember looking at telemetry studies on rutting mule deer once showing that the average buck deer traveled 15 miles a night during the rut. Not certain what telemetry studies in TN of free-ranging whitetails, if there are any, have shown for travel routes. Of course a big buck, in a big hayfield of large doe groups doesn't have to leave every night. On a rainy Saturday afternoon on the Cumberland Plateau I will relate an unfortunate story I know that happened years ago near my ranch in Montana. A few years earlier a new neighbor had purchased some beautiful river ground and nice corn fields from a friend and was diligently trying to "grow" big antlers. He had a buck that had great promise, had passed him every year and had his shed antlers from a couple of years. He was going to be a monster. Season opens, a young man, early 20's, come out from Billings to hunt at his grandmothers place, just a little patch of timber. The young lad was having breakfast, looks out the back window, sees this huge toad with his nose up the tail of little fawn doe. Never in 364 days of the year would that big buck been on that piece of ground next to that house. The kid opened the door, took aim and dropped a buck of a lifetime. Timing folks. Luck and timing. The magic of the rut. Anything is possible, you can't kill 'em on the couch!

 

[BSK]

Alot of interestingly responses but some I tend to disagree with somewhat. Agriculture definitely helps in terms to size of deer and antlers but there are exceptions . Age to me has a lot to do with a buck reaching his potential. Hunters in the mountains have produced some really great bucks some over the 160 " with a field not within probably 50 miles . They reached that by being fully mature. Genetics also plays a role that being evident from these deer farms . Tennessee has come a long way these last few years as far as bigger scoring bucks due to management . A buck can have all he wants as far as nutrition and the best genetics but if he don't last until he fully matures he won't reach his full potential.

You absolutely must have mature bucks. That's why I added in areas that are hard to hunt (limits buck harvest) and not crawling with hunters (limits buck harvest). Whatever helps to allow some bucks to reach maturity. And adding in good groceries ups the odds, but as you pointed out, even some mountain regions have produced a few top-end bucks.

 

[TheLBLman]

I remember looking at telemetry studies on rutting mule deer once showing that the average buck deer traveled 15 miles a night during the rut. Not certain what telemetry studies in TN of free-ranging whitetails, if there are any, have shown for travel routes.

The point is that rutting bucks simply travel farther than most hunters want to believe.
Rutting buck travel distance in most of TN is more restricted than one might expect on mule deer in western states.

I don't think most rutting TN bucks necessarily travel great distances nightly, but a couple miles is not a great distance for them, and such distance would take that buck well off most landowners' properties.

 

[BSK]

To augment that point, I remember looking at telemetry studies on rutting mule deer once showing that the average buck deer traveled 15 miles a night during the rut. Not certain what telemetry studies in TN of free-ranging whitetails, if there are any, have shown for travel routes.

I could give you an average number, but that number would be fairly meaningless, because each buck is an individual. Some are home bodies. Some are vast wanderers. I've seen bucks with annual ranges of under 400 acres and others as large as 18,000 acres. I once saw telemetry data for a 5 1/2 year-old buck in Louisiana that never left a 60-acre clearcut in an entire year. Other bucks travel vast distances.

The really interesting telemetry data is the stuff showing bucks that have a completely different "rut range" from their normal range. At the beginning of the rut, they pick up and leave their normal range, sometimes travelling a couple of miles away and establishing a temporary "rut range." After 6 weeks, back they go to their normal range.

 

[Flintlocksforme]

In my experience the majority of TN hunters don't see enough 115- 130 deer in their lives to pass them up. I personally have hunted almost 45 years and don't have the willpower. A few trips to the taxidermy shops will verify that. If you do see something abnormally large in the shop it probably came from another state. And besides if you pose a 115-130 right and get far enough away, you will get as much attention from social media as if you went north and got a monster.

 

[102]

This topic has been beat to death. I've done my share of beating it as well.
I've hunted for my home state of Tennessee for 41 seasons. Taken 379 whitetails, one Elk and 1 Mule deer doe.

I've seen many changes in the Tennessee deer herd over the decades. I worked 9-24 hour shifts each month for 30 years as a professional firefighter and spent more time hunting than most non professionals probably eve will. I've truly been blessed. How I managed to stay married, alive, RELATIVELY) un-ijured and raise 3 kids is truly a "God thing".

As far as I am concerned, there are VERY few experts when talking about deer hunting. You can't put all deer from all regions, counties, states, geographic locale..."in a one size fits all" statement. There are MANY generalities that can be stated but that's about it.

So, having said this, and to answer your question, (BSK already said something similar), I will put it a little more directly:
A WHOLE bunch of hunters wouldn't know a mature buck if it walked up holding up a sign stating his age.

It would totally shock most hunters ANYWHERE how many small antlered mature bucks are running around.
Like gobblers, ( and beard length, spurs, weight have ZERO to do with age) ANTLERS CAN AND DO OFTEN HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH AGE.

NOBODY I know would EVER let a 150 " buck walk past even if it was a 3.5 year old. Unless maybe it was on a HUGE private tract but I still doubt they would. (we are talking Tennessee. )

I am a scorer for Boone and Crockett and P/Y. I have scored dozens and dozens, (maybe HUNDREDS?) of bucks for B/C and P/Y.

I can count on ONE hand the ones the made it from Tennessee. Two hand from all over the US.

A 160" buck is a RARE animal...ANYWHERE! Except of course on YouTube!

Tennessee offers EXCELLENT hunting opportunities. EXCELLENT! And on public too!

TWRA is doing a great job for deer. And hopefully they will get the turkey problem figured out soon.

IMO...Turkey tags should be by lottery only for non-residents!

 

[fairchaser]

True.
But also true, most TN bucks that do reach full maturity just happen to be those with below average antler genetics. They reach their full potential
Those with above average antler genetics seldom live past 3 1/2 yrs of age.
Most are killed at 2 1/2. (At least in most of TN).

High grading is inevitable as 99% of hunters will shoot the biggest buck they see. How many will pass up a 3.5 yr old 125 inch ten point? He looks like a monster coming through the timber. Only someone with sizable private land and can absolutely control what deer are harvested on that land will pass that buck. Then you've got to pass him again next year as a 140 inch 4.5 year old buck. A true monarch. The odds of him living to 5.5 and even being killable are very small. Those bucks are only killed by 13 year old girls as their very first buck ever because she doesn't know what she's killing and God blesses them with a monster. Any other seasoned hunter including me would melt down at the rare sighting of a 160" 5.5 year old warrior. As many decades as I've hunted, my sightings of such deer would be a total of 3 and they weren't hanging around to get shot.

 

[BSK]

High grading is inevitable as 99% of hunters will shoot the biggest buck they see. How many will pass up a 3.5 yr old 125 inch ten point?

Not me!

In my experience the majority of TN hunters don't see enough 115- 130 deer in their lives to pass them up.

I'm extremely lucky in that my personal property has all sorts of unique circumstances that help to concentrate bucks during the hunting season. In addition, these bucks have spent their entire summer living and eating in nearby highly productive agricultural bottomlands full of thousands of acres of soybeans and corn. In addition, my place is very difficult to hunt because of steep terrain and lots of thick undergrowth (created intentionally), which tends to protect bucks from harvest. All these bottomland bucks come back to my place hunting season after hunting season, and their somewhat protected circumstances have allowed a fairly good buck age structure, especially over the last 20 years.

The point of all this is that I recently had a retired TWRA Regional Biologist staying at my hunting cabin, and he happened to notice a list I had printed out of the 101 antlered bucks we've killed in the 36 hunting seasons we've owned the property, ranked by antler score. He was really interested to see that the vast majority of these bucks scored from 80 to 110. Basically, he was looking at a list of average bucks in TN, especially those in the middle age-classes (2 1/2 and 3 1/2 year-olds). Despite the fact that most years, we've got at least one buck scoring over 140 on the place, and probably 1/3 of years we've got a buck near 150 on the place. Yet, very, very few of those high-scoring bucks are on our harvest list (just four). In fact, all it would take to make the "Top 10" all-time list is to beat the #10 buck, which only scores 120 6/8. So why so few top-end bucks on the list? First, they are rare. And second, they are darn hard to kill, especially in a limited visibility environment (the average MZ/rifle shot taken to kill on the property has been 35 yards). I believe you are correct in saying few hunters would pass up a 115-130 buck in Tennessee, mainly because those are good bucks for Tennessee!