TN Deer Population

[BSK]

...and 120-class antlers on a 2 1/2 appear much, much larger antlers than those same antlers "appear" on a 5 1/2.

Agreed. Had this 2 1/2 year-old buck cross a powerline right-of-way right in front of me. His small body made his rack look really impressive. Yet I bet he wouldn't have broken 120. Decided to take a picture instead of shooting him.

 

[megalomaniac]

The biggest problem with killing 160in bucks are hunters are too focused on antler scores and killing instead of the overall health of their herd.

 

[TNTreeman]

As said previously, having run camera censuses all over the Southeast (and outside the Southeast), where I see the most 150+ bucks is in areas that have a couple of features in common: 1) nearby access to very productive large-scale agriculture grown in higher quality soils, 2) very difficult ground to hunt - either in limited access or limited visibility or both, 3) limited hunter density. Put those three together - high volume of high-quality foods in summer, areas that are difficult to hunt, and areas not crawling with hunters - and you have the best chance for growing 150+ bucks.

My property has a steady bean/ corn crop consisting of about 30acres and about 15acres of green fields. It's over 200 acres with great bedding as well. Seeing 140" deer is very common, I was lucky enough this year to kill the biggest I've seen in 5 yrs of having this place. In 5 years I've fired 3 rounds and flung 1 arrow resulting in a nice doe and 3 nice bucks . The three bucks have been 4.5, 5.5, and 6.5 with the 5.5 being the biggest. I enjoy the habitat improvement more than the hunting to be honest. I've let bucks walk that flat tore my nerves up but it's paid off. My only problem is poachers and vehicles.

 

[killingtime 41]

If big bucks are what your after. Then let them grow old. I know of places in east Tn that you cannot hunt almost al year. And you have to shoot a doe first all done by archery only with just 3 hunts. . No ag fields at all. And they're is some unbelievable sized bucks on the place. It's all the same soil. So how besides age can that be explained.

 

[TheLBLman]

So how besides age can that be explained.

Much less antler high grading, mainly due to relatively little hunting?

No ag fields at all. And they're is some unbelievable sized bucks on the place.

"Unbelievable sized bucks" is a matter of perspective in the absence of measured data.

 

[tickweed]

The most practical plan I've come up with for myself is to simply avoid killing any bucks under the age of 5 1/2. This improves my odds of taking mature bucks scoring 140-ish instead of the more average 120-ish.

But again, you cannot get blood out of a turnip.
If you want realistic odds at bucks (of any age) scoring over 140, and especially over 150,
you need to look at some other states where the conditions (particularly the soil) are capable of more regularly producing antlers of this size.

A 150-plus class buck in TN might be 1 in a thousand.
A 150-plus class buck in KY might be 1 in one hundred.
Sure, there are pockets in both states where things may be a little better or worse.
But 150-plus class whitetails are relatively much rarer than outfitters and others after your money might have you thinking.

From a game agency management perspective, I think the most practical (and fair to the most hunters) deer "management" is simply to have mostly "either-sex" deer hunting with a statewide 2-buck limit. Other issues include lengths of seasons and weapons allowed (archery, shotgun only, centerfires, etc.).

Some trophist buck hunters will disagree, as they might prefer a 1-buck limit (like is the case in the State of KY). So if you want bigger antlered bucks, consider going to KY (or about any state you pick that's north and/or west of TN).

However, if TWRA "managed" the TN statewide deer seasons EXACTLY like KY does, i.e. 1-buck limit, 2-week gun season, etc.), I doubt our average buck scores would increase by over 5 inches. There is not blood in the Tennessee Turnip.

So true

 

[killingtime 41]

Some tremendous truisms espoused here. I appreciate everyone's time and input. Every time I go by BNA exit off of I-40 I get to recall in memory that massive buck with his 2 monster buddies in the ditch about 600 yards from the freeway exit to BNA. Two years later that patch of timber is a freeway exit construction site My small farm in Cumberland County exemplifies all of the points being brought out. Last shot a deer on my TN land in 2006. The neighbor feeds corn year around to "KEEP" his deer local and of course they get their bucks every year. Baiting in Cumberland County like in most places I would think in TN is as common as blue sky. Am a couple of miles from Catoosa and Fairfield Glade so that big woods and golf course habitat has a chance of allowing a good one to get some age on him. Not certain how many bucks are killed on Fairfield Glade out the back door! The business of killing big deer isn't going away. Only the amount of habitat.

Don't know how long you been around Fairfield glade and or catoosa. But it seems to me the north has moved south around there anymore. Developments and houses stretching all the way to catoosa just about now a days. And the roads are slammed packed constantly. Now they've all started coming farther and farther east in TN. My town is starting to look and sound exactly like it. Farms are going so fast you can't believe your eyes. For houses locals can't dream to buy.

 

[killingtime 41]

Much less antler high grading, mainly due to relatively little hunting?


"Unbelievable sized bucks" is a matter of perspective in the absence of measured data.

Look up the pics online. Holston army ammunition plant. And same soil I have at my house. So age must be way more important than soil. ?

 

[BSK]

Look up the pics online. Holston army ammunition plant.

One big mistake many hunters make is looking at the best bucks ever produced in an area and then thinking, "That is what this area grows." No, you have to look at the average buck of each age-class in the area to see what the area grows. Some very remote but terrible soil locations have grown the rare whopper mature buck. But that doesn't mean that's what can be expected from mature bucks in the area. That whopper buck was a genetic anomaly and would have been much bigger had he grown up in a better soil quality region. The eastern mountains have produced a couple of monsters, yet the eastern mountains are very poor soil and the average mature buck in the area probably doesn't score 115.

And same soil I have at my house. So age must be way more important than soil. ?

Individual genetics is the number #1 factor. As I've said many times, given a large enough sample from one property, I will find that the largest yearling buck will outscore the smallest mature buck. Even when all the deer are living on the same soil in the same habitat, the range of scores for each age-class all overlap each other. The difference is individual buck genetic potential and his genetic adaptations to the local environment (how well he performs in THAT environment).

 

[TheLBLman]

The eastern mountains have produced a couple of monsters, yet the eastern mountains are very poor soil and the average mature buck in the area probably doesn't score 115.

My guess would be less than 110.

If the East TN area being alluded to (for having larger antlered bucks) is Holston Army Ammunition Plant, there is a very logical explanation that specific location produces more larger antlered bucks than the surrounding area. It's mainly due to simply less hunting.

First, this area is located along the Holston River, i.e. the most fertile soils of the region.
These soils are NOT representative of the mountainous areas of East TN.

Next, significantly less high grading of 2 1/2-yr-old buck antlers on Holston installation than the surrounding area experiences. This allows for a much higher percentage of those bucks surviving to maturity to actually be the ones with the better antler genetics. By contrast, in the surrounding areas, most of the bucks surviving to maturity tend to be the ones with below average antler genetics.

Lastly, there is simply better herd health within this installation than compared to the surrounding mountainous areas. This is not just a soil & nutritional thing, but is a buck:doe ratio thing.

Most yearling bucks within the installation should not be participating in the rut, meaning they spend their 1st couple years getting better nutrition than those yearling bucks in the surrounding area. In the surrounding area, most doe breeding may be actually be done by 1 1/2-yr-old bucks, while within the installation, most 1 1/2-yr-old bucks may not "rut" any at all, as they just feed and fatten.

 

[Henry]

So, what does a younger buck look like that we would want to pass up with hopes of his genetics improving the overall genetics and which younger bucks should we eat? Are there pictures somewhere that I can memorize and use to make judgments in the field or does it really matter?

A side note: Toward the end of the season, I ran into a young guy who said he had been removing deer for different farmers totaling 22 deer over 8,000 combined acres in NW TN. What does that do, if anything, to the population where we were allowed two bucks total and 3 doe each day?

 

[knightrider]

So, what does a younger buck look like that we would want to pass up with hopes of his genetics improving the overall genetics and which younger bucks should we eat? Are there pictures somewhere that I can memorize and use to make judgments in the field or does it really matter?

A side note: I ran into a young guy who said he had been removing deer for different farmers totaling 22 deer over 8,000 combined acres in NW TN. What does that do, if anything, to the population where we were allowed two bucks total and 3 doe each day?

In a free range herd you are not going to improve herd genetics by letting one go and shooting another, for personal satisfaction shoot what makes you happy. I try to hold out for 4.5 or older the last few years and dont care what they score

 

[TheLBLman]

So, what does a younger buck look like that we would want to pass up with hopes of his genetics improving the overall genetics and which younger bucks should we eat?

If your goal is to produce more larger antlered bucks, my recommendation would be to give a pass to ALL bucks appearing younger than 4 1/2. In terms of collective herd antler genetics, you're not going to accomplish much if anything via passing or killing any particular bucks under the age of 3 1/2.

While you may not alter herd antler genetics much, you can augment the outcome a bit simply by not killing your best antlered bucks at 2 1/2 or 3 1/2. When these individual bucks are among those surviving to 4 1/2 or older, there can be a significant difference in the antler scores of your average older buck. But this is more due to hunter restraint than antler genetics.

Prior to their reaching 3 1/2, it can be difficult to guess which individual bucks may or may not have above or below average antler genetics. And with 1 1/2-yr-old bucks, you can really, really guess wrong, as often, many spike bucks were simply late-born, and may have way above average genetic potential. Being late born, they may have to reach the age of 4 1/2 simply to "blossom" and show their true genetic potential.

It is for some the above reasons, I personally try to "target" bucks that I believe to be 5 1/2 or older, as that is the age most will grow their highest scoring antlers. Some will score more at 6 1/2, most will gain some "mass" (antler circumference) at 6 1/2 & 7 1/2, but may lose "score" which is often more a reflection of tines lengths than circumferences of those tines (and main antler beams).

Personally, I'd rather take a 120-class fully mature buck, getting relatively more of his "score" from mass (antler circumferences) than a younger 130-class buck getting his "score" mainly from tines lengths (albeit often very "skinny" tines, "skinny", non-impressive antlers). Never mind that that young 130 may have had what it takes to become a 150-plus mature buck, if you just don't kill him before his time.

I assure you this "prescription" is more easily said than done.
Very few of us have the restraint NOT to kill a young buck with larger appearing antlers than the largest antlers we've taken to date on a buck of any age.

One of the biggest obstacles is hunters' unwillingness to greatly study body profiles of bucks, so that they can quickly make better field aging assessments. Most hunters focus most on the antlers, and a 115-class 2 1/2-yr-old buck may "appear" to be a 150-class set of antlers. The hunter quickly shoots, then experiences major "ground shrinkage".

Are there pictures somewhere that I can memorize and use to make judgments in the field or does it really matter?

Yes.

Homepage | National Deer Association

deerassociation.com

 

[TheLBLman]

A side note: Toward the end of the season, I ran into a young guy who said he had been removing deer for different farmers totaling 22 deer over 8,000 combined acres in NW TN. What does that do, if anything, to the population where we were allowed two bucks total and 3 doe each day?

Most farmers are mainly shooting female deer simply to reduce the deer population (and crop damage). Ongoing deer populations are "managed" almost totally by the doe kill, with little impact on the ongoing total numbers of deer by the buck kill.

Despite the per hunter deer limit being 2 bucks annually and 3 doe a day, most NW TN hunters now kill more bucks than does annually (and/or in near equal ratios).

The majority who make a kill simply kill 1 deer annually, which might be a buck, might be a doe. The 3 doe a day limit was implemented to encourage hunters to kill more doe in Unit L. It somewhat has worked, but not many hunters have backed off, realizing most only want or need a deer or two a year to eat, simply not wanting to "mess with" killing any more deer than that.

 

[BSK]

So, what does a younger buck look like that we would want to pass up with hopes of his genetics improving the overall genetics and which younger bucks should we eat? Are there pictures somewhere that I can memorize and use to make judgments in the field or does it really matter?

You aren't improving or harming the local genetics by what you harvest. Big antlered bucks don't produce big antlered male offspring. The mother has far more to do with a buck's antler size at maturity. By protecting the best younger bucks, all you're doing is allowing young bucks that show the most potential and allowing them to reach maturity, where they can express that potential. Although it cannot be said this is true in every instance, what I have seen when being able to track bucks over their lifetime (or at least from 2 1/2 onwards), is that the vast majority of very large antlered mature bucks were large-antlered for their age at every age. In essence, most huge antlered mature bucks were way above average at 3 1/2 and 2 1/2. That doesn't mean a large-antlered 2 1/2 will become a monster at maturity, but he has the best potential to be large at maturity. It has been exceedingly rare for me to find a huge-antlered mature buck that wasn't above average for his age at 2 1/2 and 3 1/2.

So by protecting large-antlered young bucks, you are allowing bucks with the best potential to grow to maturity, where they can express that potential.

Now what should be protected by age-class? That depends on what the averages are for your area. In my area, 2 1/2 year-old bucks average around 85 gross. So any 2 1/2 topping 100 gross should be protected. 3 1/2s average 105 gross, so I would certainly protect 3 1/2s that push the 120 mark.

 

[BSK]

Let me also add that this type of management - protecting the best middle-aged bucks - isn't for everyone. Heck, I don't even practice it on my own property. Why? Because I'm not managing for top-scoring antlers. My place is a family entertainment hunt. We hunt for fun. Most of the family members hunting our farm just want to kill a buck, and any 2 1/2+ buck will do. And that's OK. We enjoy ourselves.

But on the large hunting clubs where I've implemented this process of protecting the best middle-aged bucks, the increase in top-end mature bucks has been dramatic.

 

[Henry]

This is a lot of great info. I will need to read it a couple more times to memorize it.

 

[TheLBLman]

But on the large hunting clubs where I've implemented this process of protecting the best middle-aged bucks, the increase in top-end mature bucks has been dramatic.

This is true when AGE (coupled with their above average antlers) becomes the primary criteria for giving those best middle-aged bucks a pass.

Unfortunately, not the clubs you have advised, but many large clubs have attempted to grow more bucks via antler restrictions. This may protect most 1 1/2-yr-old bucks (yearlings), and some 2 1/2's, but it's often counter-productive in producing TOP-END mature bucks.

Somethings not working as planned when the average hunter-killed 3 1/2 scores higher than the average hunter-killed 5 1/2 in the same area. This is commonly seen when antler restrictions (such as 9 points, 4 on a side, 8 points, etc.) are utilized in determining "shooter" bucks.

Antler restrictions can be more "practical" simply because it can be difficult to teach or train a large group of hunters to field sort bucks based on body profile (age) instead of antlers. Even when a particular hunter gets pretty good at field aging, he is most likely to make a mistake on the most top-end antlered young bucks.

 

[348Winchester]

Since 1997 I have hunted an area of rugged mountainous terrain in southern Scott County. It has been strip mined and timbered (several times) in the past. The core area I have hunted comprises roughly 1300-1400 acres. Over the years I have taken 1 buck that scored 157, 1 at 151, 1 at 148, 1 at 145, 1 at 141, 1 at 137, 1 at 132, and probably 8-10 in the 110-120's. A couple of friends have taken a few in the 120's as well. Last year a friend took a brute of an 8 point that was 180 lbs dressed and had the most balanced rack I have ever seen. It scored 142. There is no agriculture anywhere close. The terrain is steep, thick, and rugged. It used to receive moderately heavy hunting pressure. Over the last 12-14 years the pressure has steadily declined. It is now very lightly hunted. In 2017 EHD hit very hard. We lost about 70-80% of the herd. The hogs, bears, and coyotes have increased in numbers which has kept the deer recovery slow.

Just as BSK and others have indicated, unique factors can contribute to an increased percentage of mature bucks in an area.

What is very interesting is that the overwhelming majority of the biggest bucks killed on this area has been in a section of the property less than 150 acres in size. Maybe even smaller than that.

 

[BSK]

Since 1997 I have hunted an area of rugged mountainous terrain in southern Scott County. It has been strip mined and timbered (several times) in the past. The core area I have hunted comprises roughly 1300-1400 acres. Over the years I have taken 1 buck that scored 157, 1 at 151, 1 at 148, 1 at 145, 1 at 141, 1 at 137, 1 at 132, and probably 8-10 in the 110-120's. A couple of friends have taken a few in the 120's as well. Last year a friend took a brute of an 8 point that was 180 lbs dressed and had the most balanced rack I have ever seen. It scored 142. There is no agriculture anywhere close. The terrain is steep, thick, and rugged. It used to receive moderately heavy hunting pressure. Over the last 12-14 years the pressure has steadily declined. It is now very lightly hunted. In 2017 EHD hit very hard. We lost about 70-80% of the herd. The hogs, bears, and coyotes have increased in numbers which has kept the deer recovery slow.

Just as BSK and others have indicated, unique factors can contribute to an increased percentage of mature bucks in an area.

What is very interesting is that the overwhelming majority of the biggest bucks killed on this area has been in a section of the property less than 150 acres in size. Maybe even smaller than that.

Didn't the state record typical come from that area?