What are you looking for while scouting?

[Madbowh]

What started me on what I call my journey to big bucks was hunting with a guy that explained things a lot like ski only he started with Boone and Crocket. He always said find good groups of does and still hunt within a mile of them, he says Boone and Crockett are what they were because they understand the big boys are nomads(still hunted) they didn't sit all day in a tree in the same spot, yes have their "safe haven" but are nomads within that safe haven. A couple of other old timers iknow in Maine and new Hampshire only still hunt and that's how they get them, once finding them year after year in that general spot there they were. I think these type of older still hunters understood what we can explain about mature deer in more detail, hence the roughly 3 days rule.

And the real older guys just like a parent to their children so it because I said so. There was no explanation

 

[deerhunter10]

It truly is fascinating. I think we shape our approaches according to our failures.

Can't speak for everyone but for me my failures have shaped me way more than me being successful. I will never forget the deer I have killed, but the deer I have screwed up on seem to be carved more in my brain than the success. I have learned way more from failing the being successful throughout my entire life. From sports when I was young, my business and hunting. You can't learn if you never try.

 

[JeepKuntry]

Well the way I killed that monster 4 pt was i found a fresh rub and hunted it about 36 hours later. In all seriousness I don't feel like I consistently kill mature bucks, but the 4-5 I have been fortunate enough to take were all in areas that had thick bedding cover close and one heck of a drag out.

 

[BSK]

The best indicator I've found is estrus does. If I have a doe in estrus today and a particular buck is tending her, there's a very real plausibility she'll be estrus same time next year and if he's still alive he'll be in the area. I've also noticed the "same place same time" phenomenon to some degree with certain bucks.

As the years pass, and the data builds up, I'm beginning to notice this phenomenon. Same place, same time each year, almost to the day.

 

[BSK]

Well the way I killed that monster 4 pt was i found a fresh rub and hunted it about 36 hours later. In all seriousness I don't feel like I consistently kill mature bucks, but the 4-5 I have been fortunate enough to take were all in areas that had thick bedding cover close and one heck of a drag out.

I number of years ago, I was placing all of the older buck sightings and kills we had made over the years on a habitat map. Something jumped out at me so I decided to analyze it. Sure enough, it turned out to be true. I placed a 100-yard buffer around every piece of thick cover habitat we had on the property, and although that only encompassed (along with the cover itself) around 50% of the property, 100% of the 3 1/2 year-old buck sightings we had up to that date fell within those 100-yard buffers. Since I discovered that, it's been a rare day that I place a stand more than 100 yards from thick cover. Can't tell you how many bucks I've killed since then as they work right along the edge of the closest cover.

 

[beefydeer]

100 yards from thick cover.

Deer live their lives below 5 feet from the ground, so if I am walking in the woods and they are open enough to see more than 50 yards I don't waste my time. Hunt right on the edge of cover so thick it seems impenetrable. Just be mobile though, dont overhunt the spot. I can not stress enough, DO NOT OVER HUNT A SPOT. The places I hunt now I would have not even thought about it years ago because of low visibility.

 

[Ski]

I number of years ago, I was placing all of the older buck sightings and kills we had made over the years on a habitat map. Something jumped out at me so I decided to analyze it. Sure enough, it turned out to be true. I placed a 100-yard buffer around every piece of thick cover habitat we had on the property, and although that only encompassed (along with the cover itself) around 50% of the property, 100% of the 3 1/2 year-old buck sightings we had up to that date fell within those 100-yard buffers. Since I discovered that, it's been a rare day that I place a stand more than 100 yards from thick cover. Can't tell you how many bucks I've killed since then as they work right along the edge of the closest cover.

That's exactly the kind of nerdy stuff I love about deer hunting! Like you said earlier, every tidbit is another piece of the puzzle.

Deer live their lives below 5 feet from the ground, so if I am walking in the woods and they are open enough to see more than 50 yards I don't waste my time. Hunt right on the edge of cover so thick it seems impenetrable. Just be mobile though, dont overhunt the spot. I can not stress enough, DO NOT OVER HUNT A SPOT. The places I hunt now I would have not even thought about it years ago because of low visibility.

I always heard if you can throw a basketball as far as you can & still see it when it lands, you're not hunting in thick enough cover. Deer don't like to be seen, especially older bucks. They don't even want to be seen by other deer. Unfortunately a lot of the big woods areas in hill country don't have anything for cover, but the deer still find ways to go unseen by using terrain. I hardly ever see a buck cruising along the top of a ridge in daylight. It's amazing how well they can disappear just by being still or dropping below the terrain.

 

[beefydeer]

I always heard if you can throw a basketball as far as you can & still see it when it lands, you're not hunting in thick enough cover.

Never heard that before but I like it. I also never hunt a field or food plot. I just like to hunker down in the thick stuff and hide. I would be bored as heck hunting over a field.

 

[fairchaser]

Most of my hunting career I've migrated toward thicker cover as that's where deer are the most comfortable. The problem with hunting that cover is the limited visibility and the almost impossible task of getting in and out without being detected by noise or scent. Try getting through thick cover without touching anything or anything touching you! It's not just hard but impossible. So I've moved out to more open areas on the edge of thick cover. I look for spots that I can have clean entry and exit. This allows more than the typical three hunts and you're out scenario. If I can find these open spots near thick cover with clean access and deer must pass through with a mature buck hanging around, I've got a deadly combination. The odds get slightly tilted towards me and I like playing the odds.

 

[beefydeer]

If I can find these open spots near thick cover with clean access and deer must pass through with a mature buck hanging around, I've got a deadly combination.

This works during the rut because the bucks want to push the does into the more open areas but the rest of the season it doesn't work as good in my experience. During the rut all cards are off the table when it comes to predicting behavior. You just have to be in the woods during the rut.

 

[philsanchez76]

That's a great question and it's a twofold answer, so please bare with me if it gets long winded.

It wasn't until I owned land & began managing habitat that I learned my limits while hunting. By running many cams year round on a small acreage I have been able to learn so much more about deer behavior than I ever did from only hunting. I started it thinking I'd be able to put in a food plot & shoot giants when they step out to eat. Not the case. Reality hit me like a mack truck. Old bucks are SENSITIVE and acutely aware of their environment. Pretty quick I realized that having a stand near a plot would kill activity there......for weeks. Then I learned that hunting the same stands over & over would kill he area .... for weeks. Every deer is affected but mature bucks are the first and most dramatically affected. Furthermore, if I hunted a stand at the wrong time & saw nothing at all, the area was still affected.

What I learned to key in on was that a mature buck doesn't tend to hang out in any one area for long. If he stays at all it will only be a few days or maybe couple weeks if you're lucky, then he'll move on. If he comes in to an area and smells my presence, even if I've not been there for days, he'll keep on moving. Doesn't matter that I provided good green food when everything else is brown, or that there are thickets for cover. The land is tainted with human presence and he won't tolerate it. So even though I own the land & work the habitat, I can't just willy nilly hunt it whenever I want. I have to wait until there is a buck hanging around before I can hunt, then it's a tightrope walk trying to kill him before he realizes I'm there and/or moves on with his life. The good thing is that if he doesn't know I'm there he will be everywhere all over the property all times of day, so they're actually pretty easy to kill once you have one to hunt. That's why I often talk about hunting a specific deer for multiple years before killing him, yet it only took a couple sits to get it done. It's because I'm learning his habits & timing & tendencies before I ever try going after him. When I finally climb a tree to hunt him, I fully intend and believe I'll get him. Sometimes it just takes awhile before I have enough knowledge to be confident.

Carrying those lessons forward to public land, and the bucks do the same things. They shift around area to area, spending however many days before moving on to the next. And if at any time they ever feel threatened because of human presence they'll vacate. If I find a spot where I suspect a big buck is, has been, or will be then I give it a shot. Just like with private land if he's around I'll more than likely see him fairly quick. He'll be easy to kill because he'll be all over the area all times of day. But if I'm there too early or too late then he's not there at all and it's a waste of time hunting a deer that doesn't exist. Worse yet if I'm too early but hang out too long then I saturate the area with my presence and when he does show up he won't stay. He'll keep on going. On my private land I can't hunt except for inside a tiny window of time and for one specific deer. But on public land I'm free to roam & hunt all season long because I can go spot to spot, sometimes hitting a spot multiple times at different intervals. If I blow a deer out then I either follow him or move on to hunt another deer somewhere else. I love bow hunting. If all I had was my own private ground I'd be miserable because I wouldn't be able to hunt much. Public land has its challenges for sure but man we're blessed to have so much of it.

The key to getting on & killing an old mature buck isn't by being a great hunter. It's really as simple as hunting in an area that currently holds one. If he's there you'll find out within a couple days because he'll be visible. If he's not then move on. All you're doing by hanging around is ruining a good spot that might otherwise be a great spot later in the season or even a week later. They move around inside their range so much and leave sign literally everywhere that you have no idea where he's at without strapping a GPS collar on him, and he KNOWS his range like you know your home. Just check in periodically until you're there when he's there and you'll get him. Bucks are used to human odor. They don't leave an entire area because they smell where you walked. Otherwise they'd all fall into the ocean trying to get away from us. What causes them to leave and/or avoid an area is when that human(or any predator) odor saturates the area with cumulative volume, such as hunting a spot too often. He's a prey animal so he's plenty used to being stalked & hunted. He can handle that. But he's not foolish enough to live with a predator and in his mind when he steps into a place you're at a lot, he thinks you live there. That's why I only hunt a spot a couple days & move on. I'll come back to it periodically but I won't sit & wait all season long thinking a big buck will eventually step out. He won't.

Thx for taking the time to answer that. I think your emphasis on how a buck moves on quickly really makes sense. I believe one of my biggest issues is finding a buck in a good spot and then not being able to move on from it when he's made me.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

I haven't had the chance to read all 3 pages yet, but will get around to it. This is the type of stuff I love. I will emphasize that everything I am referring to is based on our family farm.

What I've learned is that bucks don't bed in the same spots in hill/hollow hardwood habitats. Nor do they travel on a pattern. Well, I have been able to pattern a handful of bucks from velvet all the way until about the end of October over the years. Literally just a few. When it comes to November, best of luck - it's not happening. Can I expect unique different bucks each to show up on certain portions of the property around the same time each year? Yes. As long as I know they're there, that's all I need to know. I really don't pay much attention to sign during the season. And I certainly don't hunt over sign. I hunt over pinch points, funnels and benches that may contain sign, but not because that stuff is there. It simply just happens to be there. Do I like to see a lot of fresh hot sign while hunting, absolutely...but I only take into account that a deer is there and fired up. Will likely put up a camera and see what's going on.

To the original post from BC. I feel my way of learning is much different than most all of you. It is for most hunters I talk to. I think the most important aspect of killing mature deer are knowing how they use terrain. How do you figure that out? I feel some have an eye for it and some don't. For me, I've taken very detailed notes over the years. Not as extensive as BSK, but fairly extensive. Mine consists of temp, wind speed/direction, what deer I saw, where they came from and where they were headed, and what was their demeanor (taking their time eating, cruising, chasing, very on edge?). I also get detailed travel routes of older deer sightings from our other hunters. I have a very good memory and could tell you just about every deer I have ever seen at any given spot over the 24 years we have had this property. I am serious when I say that. With that memory of how/where a target age class of bucks travelled, as well as looking at my notes over the years, I could figure out a pattern of how certain age classes of bucks used the terrain. How? Lliterally, getting a topo map and trace travel routes in accordance to my notes and going off memory. That was telling and I don't know how it could have painted a clearer picture, for the way my brain works anyway.

Over the years, I have looked at this map (adding on to it each year) and walked these routes usually in Jan-Apr. I have walked them alot over the years. I can see what they see and where they can't be seen from (where we hunters might be). Call me crazy, but I feel a vision can be developed for potential travel. Travel those routes enough and you will get a feel for how they travel. Keep walking and go where you think they may have gone or where they came from. For example, you know you got a pic of an older buck down the hollow 300 yards and you happen to be walking in that direction on the side-hill you saw a good buck traveling - walk where you think he may of walked right to the camera. This isn't perfect, but your probably within 50 yards left or right the entire way. Walking these routes for 3 months out of the year EVERY year, I feel you can narrow that gap. It isn't for everyone, but it is for some. When beds are found, stop and kneel down in it. See what they can see and what wind they will likely bed there. Will that help me next season in this type habitat, highly unlikely for that specific spot. But find 10-15 of those over a couple year span, and you will likely get a feel for how deer like to bed and other potential bedding spots may pop in your head.

Again, my method isn't for everyone, but I like to exercise and stay in shape. I also get bored turkey hunting a lot , especially the last several years, and can't help myself but to go walking. Why not, I've got my turkey gun, calls, snacks. I'll do that in hopes a bird will fire up. Oh, and during the offseason when scouting, I DO pay attention to rubs and scrapes from the previous fall. A lot of the times, they are where many of us weren't hunting. I take that into account the following season.

All of this has helped a lot hunting other properties as well. Not the tracing deer travel on maps, but reading the likely terrain travel.

 

[hbg1]

This works during the rut because the bucks want to push the does into the more open areas but the rest of the season it doesn't work as good in my experience. During the rut all cards are off the table when it comes to predicting behavior. You just have to be in the woods during the rut.

I've noticed the opposite, mature bucks tend to push estrous does into cover

 

[BDS05]

That's odd for sure. I'd be interested in knowing what the herd stats are for that area in terms of sex ratio and age structure. Is it public or private?

Again, great post.
I won't even begin to guess ratio or age structures. In this instance, I'm speaking of private land with "limited" pressure.
I understand your theory on licking branch heights.
Other than licking branches, what makes you believe more scrapes = greater bucks?
As far as rubs, from middle to west TN, public to private, they're non existent on my traveled properties or I'm absolutely terrible (very likely possible) at locating a defined run line. You say knee - waist. Are you talking middle of the rub or top of the rub. I realize that sounds rookie but I've noticed many of rubs that travel 2' or so.

 

[killingtime 41]

I've grown to love hunting HEAVY cover. At one time, I absolutely hated it…

At one time I would hunt only places I could see the most area.at that time I would prefer if that was in multiple directions. But I rarely seen see anything 3.5 or older. If anything at all. I did that for much longer than I should have. But that was also at a time before smart phones or cell phones even. Information was mostly experience and word of mouth or magazine subscriptions.time in the woods and good info is what got me in the thick stuff.

 

[jetwrnch]

Anything that doesn't look like work. I scout to decompress because it all changes during season anyway.

 

[Ski]

Thx for taking the time to answer that. I think your emphasis on how a buck moves on quickly really makes sense. I believe one of my biggest issues is finding a buck in a good spot and then not being able to move on from it when he's made me.

They move around so much he was going to move out soon whether you spooked him or not. But he'd eventually come back, especially if it's a place he feels comfortable. Lots of folks think it's scorched earth catastrophe when they spook a buck but really it's usually not. If he was able to make you and evade the danger without too close a call, then that encounter reinforces his faith in that spot giving him a safety advantage. He's built to detect danger. It's in his DNA to seek out areas that lend themselves to him detecting/evading danger. So long as you don't saturate the entire area with day after day of your predator odor he will still feel safe there. But keep in mind there are a hundred other places like it in the several square mile area that he calls home, and he never spends more than a couple weeks consecutively at any one of them.

I think there are two things going on. First by constantly moving he is not a sitting duck for predation. Secondly it only takes so long before he depletes the resources in that core area so he moves to another one that's fresh, giving the one he just left time to replenish. Early summer near ag is the only time I see a mature buck linger for more than a few days or couple weeks, and that's probably because no predators are hunting him and he has more than he can eat. Otherwise mature bucks shift around a lot.

 

[Ski]

Other than licking branches, what makes you believe more scrapes = greater bucks?

It's been my experience that yearling & 2yr old bucks don't make a lot of sign. The older a buck gets the more sign he leaves and the more intense it is, generally speaking. I understand some bucks don't make much sign at all but most do. Also when there is more than one buck who is old enough to be competitive, they tend to really go overboard with the sign. In areas with high doe population & few older class bucks, there's not much reason to compete by making lots of sign because everybody gets to party. But when the does are limited the bucks will work hard to out compete their cohorts.

As far as rubs, from middle to west TN, public to private, they're non existent on my traveled properties or I'm absolutely terrible (very likely possible) at locating a defined run line. You say knee - waist. Are you talking middle of the rub or top of the rub. I realize that sounds rookie but I've noticed many of rubs that travel 2' or so.

When I say knee high or hip high I mostly mean the bottom to center of the rub. When you see a buck rubbing, his neck is stretched out so that his spine is a straight, stiff rod running from rump to forehead, nose pointed straight at the dirt. As he's pressed tight up against it he begins rubbing his forehead up & down & twisting it, and in order to strip bark off he has to apply a lot of pressure. When the rub is knee high you know the buck is physically low to the ground, meaning he's young and/or small. If it starts at hip high & goes up then how big must that buck be? It's not a yearling.

I don't get too caught up on rubs or rub lines or rub clusters. Every buck from button to grandpa makes them. I'm mostly interested in how high on the tree they are. I shot a buck several years ago that was 5 minutes behind a group of young bucks that were chasing a hot doe. They had her running ragged panting like a dog. He came in like a lion strutting into a pack of hyenas and they scattered out to the periphery as he took to thrashing every sapling in a 30yd radius. In what seemed like an eternity but couldn't have been more than 2 minutes, he had made a dozen or more rubs. He was displaying his dominance and they all took notice. Had I not witnessed it but walked in days after the fact I'd be inclined to think a big buck must be living in that area, probably bedding right in that spot. I'd think I stumbled into a big buck's bedroom. After experiencing that I quit trying to interpret rubs for more than anything than gauging how big the buck's body is. I've seen bucks make rubs for no apparent reason, in seemingly random spots, with no apparent provocation. It's like they just get mad a sapling for existing. Testosterone makes them crazy.

 

[MUP]

As the years pass, and the data builds up, I'm beginning to notice this phenomenon. Same place, same time each year, almost to the day.

Do you remember our discussion, years ago, about my place? I was talking about an area that seems to draw the does in with the bucks to breed. It's also the place where I've killed all but 1 of my biggest bucks, and the one buck that I killed that wasn't in that immediate area was seen there 2 weeks prior, chasing does across the top of the ridge, just out of range and moving too fast for a shot. I killed him the two weeks later within 300 yards of that spot, still following does.

 

[Soft Talker]

I'm hunting around doe groups, during breeding season here in Tn. In my experience, that runs from the beginning of November through the end of January. Almost all of my older deer are killed Christmas week through the end of January, around pockets of younger does. Big tracks and big signpost rubs, along the edge or just inside whatever cover these does are laying up in. I play the wind best I can in these mountains. I keep a solid supply of rank tarsals, from both bucks and does, in my freezer. I will strategically hang these around me and sit and watch, sometimes from a tree and sometimes on the ground, no more than 50 yards from where I think deer may travel. 11 till 2, on days when it stays between 35 and 45 degrees, have proven extremely deadly over the years.