What are you looking for while scouting?

[BSK]

I will strategically hang these around me and sit and watch, sometimes from a tree and sometimes on the ground, no more than 50 yards from where I think deer may travel. 11 till 2, on days when it stays between 35 and 45 degrees, have proven extremely deadly over the years.

Never ceases to amaze me at how differently mature bucks will act under different circumstances. Just goes to show how adaptive they are to localized conditions. On my place, 11 AM to 2 PM is the least likely times to catch a mature buck moving. Below is 15 years of mature buck pictures at trail-cameras, 24 hours a day. Notice the low point 11 AM to 2 PM.

 

[Soft Talker]

Never ceases to amaze me at how differently mature bucks will act under different circumstances. Just goes to show how adaptive they are to localized conditions. On my place, 11 AM to 2 PM is the least likely times to catch a mature buck moving. Below is 15 years of mature buck pictures at trail-cameras, 24 hours a day. Notice the low point 11 AM to 2 PM.

No offense, but maybe the ones that were moving between 11 and 2, were in areas where you had no cameras

 

[BSK]

By running many cams year-round on a small acreage, I have been able to learn so much more about deer behavior than I ever did from only hunting.

What I learned to key in on was that a mature buck doesn't tend to hang out in any one area for long. If he stays at all it will only be a few days or maybe couple weeks if you're lucky, then he'll move on. If he comes into an area and smells my presence, even if I've not been there for days, he'll keep on moving. Doesn't matter that I provided good green food when everything else is brown, or that there are thickets for cover. The land is tainted with human presence and he won't tolerate it. So even though I own the land & work the habitat, I can't just willy nilly hunt it whenever I want. I have to wait until there is a buck hanging around before I can hunt, then it's a tightrope walk trying to kill him before he realizes I'm there and/or moves on with his life. The good thing is that if he doesn't know I'm there he will be everywhere all over the property all times of day, so they're actually pretty easy to kill once you have one to hunt. That's why I often talk about hunting a specific deer for multiple years before killing him, yet it only took a couple sits to get it done. It's because I'm learning his habits & timing & tendencies before I ever try going after him. When I finally climb a tree to hunt him, I fully intend and believe I'll get him. Sometimes it just takes a while before I have enough knowledge to be confident.

The key to getting on & killing an old mature buck isn't by being a great hunter. It's really as simple as hunting in an area that currently holds one. If he's there, you'll find out within a couple days because he'll be visible.

Another example of just how different mature bucks will act in different locations and under different levels of hunting pressure. Or perhaps the difference is the size of the private property being hunting. But on my place (3/4 of a square mile [500 acres]) we will have 2-5 mature bucks using the property for at least the first 3 weeks of November - through peak breeding. We will get each buck's picture about once every three days through that time period (and maybe that indicates our property is not part of his core area). But they will not be visible at all! The vast majority of their trail-cam pictures will be at night - chasing a doe through a food plot or working a scrape. Or it could be we're just lousy mature buck hunters, because killing one of those mature bucks has proven exceedingly difficult! Outside of thick cover, they are very, very nocturnal. But I agree, they are exceptionally sensitive to hunting pressure. Once we start hunting them at the opening of MZ season, the few daylight pictures we're getting of them cease. And in the past, once peak breeding was over, they would vanish from the property until the following year (almost certainly due to hunting pressure). However, since we've converted a fair amount of our acreage to thick cover, now they are staying longer into the season (although staying extremely nocturnal).

 

[BSK]

No offense, but maybe the ones that were moving between 11 and 2, were in areas where you had no cameras

Correct. Studies show - even under intense hunting pressure - mature bucks still cover the same amount of ground each day. However, their travel routes become exceedingly convoluted to stay within thick cover. We do not hunt nor put cameras in our thick cover because we are keeping these areas as sanctuaries, hence where mature bucks move during daylight (thick cover) we have no cameras and do not hunt. We always try to hunt near thick cover but not in the cover.

 

[Soft Talker]

Correct. Studies show - even under intense hunting pressure - mature bucks still cover the same amount of ground each day. However, their travel routes become exceedingly convoluted to stay within thick cover. We do not hunt nor put cameras in our thick cover because we are keeping these areas as sanctuaries, hence where mature bucks move during daylight (thick cover) we have no cameras and do not hunt. We always try to hunt near thick cover but not in the cover.

Understandable

 

[Speedwell-Hunter]

In my experience big bucks do the same thing over & over, generation after generation. Once you find how they use a particular area you've got them by the balls because the terrain never changes and landscape rarely does, so if you kill a big buck here this year the chances are good you can kill another one next year same spot generally same time.

I approach it by first finding the major food source and scouting outward until I've identified where big bucks historically bed. Along the way I'll see where does bed. It's like playing connect the dots. I know there will be a line going from food to doe beds, to buck beds. Along that line I search for pinched areas where travel will be predictable. It could be subtle like the edge of a steep slope or edge of thicket, or it could be obvious like the top of a steep ravine where it's easier for a deer to walk around than down & back up. My favorites are "S" curves in a creek because the two curves will have high banks while the straight in between will have a shallow bank right at creek bottom level. It's easy to cross. Once I've identified all potential "pinches" I'll scout them to see which gets the most traffic, then I'll draw a line to connect the dots. I set up & hunt the pinches I feel best about, food end in the evenings and bed end in the mornings. Within a few sits I generally will have learned enough to tighten the noose and get on him. If I get him it's usually inside of three days of hunting. Generally beyond that I don't get him at all. He wins and I move on.

Probably unlike most hunters I don't give much credence to sign, and rarely if ever hunt over it. I pay attention to rubs in how high they are but not how big or tore up they are. A buck's neck is always stretched straight out or slightly down as he pushes against the tree. If it's knee high I know it's not a big bodied buck. If it's hip high I pay attention because a yearling 6pt can't get leverage that high up. For scrapes I look for numbers of scrapes that are fresh and I look for licking branches broken or stripped of leaves above my head. Lots of scrapes frequently opened usually means more than one older buck competing for the area, so my odds of getting on one are higher than if I'm in an area with only one big buck. The high licking branch is like the rubs. It takes a big bodied buck to reach 6ft-7ft up. Big bodies usually mean big racks. Old sign like old rubs, especially if apparent multiple years of high rubs means I'm in an area that holds big bucks every year.

That's what I look for. Long winded but really pretty simple and repeatable. Sure there are exceptions to every rule but I'm trying to play the odds, not defy them. The sign only lets me know if a good buck is in the area. Connecting the dots of travel let me know where to hang a stand. And you gotta know when you've lost. If you haven't gotten him within a few days, he's onto you. Any more time and you're spitting into the wind. You're best off finding the next buck. They are around. You're just probably not going to see a mature buck at a rub, scrape, or in the field during daylight, although it seems that's where everybody hunts. They actually cruise through open timber all times of day more than folks seem to think. You just gotta find the spots where his travel gets narrowed down inside a tight window and set up & wait......and wait......and wait. It's not uncommon for me to sit a day or two or three & never see the first deer, but I know when I do it'll probably be an old bruiser by himself with no apparent care in the world, and he'll be inside of 20yds to my stand. The other hunters are sitting over where he'll be at 2:30am, not pm. That's why I rarely encounter other hunters. We aren't hunting the same spots. Truth be told, most of my bucks were shot in places folks wouldn't expect to see a deer, let alone a good buck. That said, I know guys who get it done in the obvious places too. So who knows?

My issue, I cannot figure out where they bed

 

[Ski]

Another example of just how different mature bucks will act in different locations and under different levels of hunting pressure. Or perhaps the difference is the size of the private property being hunting. But on my place (3/4 of a square mile [500 acres]) we will have 2-5 mature bucks using the property for at least the first 3 weeks of November - through peak breeding. We will get each buck's picture about once every three days through that time period (and maybe that indicates our property is not part of his core area). But they will not be visible at all! The vast majority of their trail-cam pictures will be at night - chasing a doe through a food plot or working a scrape.

That's not entirely different than what I experience on my place but there are some pretty significant differences. Mine is just under 100acres all open mature hardwoods in hill country with closest ag being over a mile away on the other side of a large river. Aside from the ag on the other side of the river, my place is surrounded by miles of mature hardwoods. Deer density isn't very high. Not much cover. In the years I've been keeping census the most does & fawns I've ever had on the property at one time was 9. I tend to keep two distinct but small family groups of does year round. Bucks on the other hand are not a problem. They shift up from the river bottom ag country usually in early/mid October but this year was nearly a month late. Any given season I'll have half a dozen 3.5yr+ bucks who call my place home to some extent, although it's rare to have more than two at any given time. They seem to come & go, each buck staying a matter of days up to a couple weeks at a time. They really only ever congregate last week of October into first week of November, except this year it was late. It didn't happen until second week of November. Below are all different bucks 3.5yrs+ that spent some amount of time on my place this fall. There were a few others but they just passed through. These bucks in the pics all hung around more than just a couple days. There are usually at least as many 2yr olds and always some yearlings but I don't keep track of anything until it's got a uniquely identifiable rack. Every year I have a lineup of bucks like this, +/- one or two.

Notice other than the first pic these pics are all inside of the same week. The first pic was the only older buck that showed up before second week of November this year. Last time I pulled cards was Nov 13th so I don't know yet how long each one stayed before moving on again. If anything like years past these bucks would be regulars until about right now, then there would be another shift of new bucks and they all break into bachelor groups, then go back to ag in spring.

The buck I hunted this season is in the last pic. The last couple years he shows up around beginning of November. This year it was Nov. 6th. That was first time I've had him on cam since Dec. 4th last year. I killed him on Nov. 12th. I pulled cards the morning after I killed him & saw that in the six days from his arrival til his death, he had made 14 separate appearances on camera all times of day & night every single day. I had a hundred or more pics/vids of him that week. I didn't have to be a good hunter. Stevie Wonder could have fired an arrow and killed this buck because he was everywhere.

 

[fairchaser]

Interesting how different hunters use different approaches to hunting mature bucks. Whenever we have some success we think oh that's how it's done only to find the next buck is completely different! How do you pattern something that's mostly random? It's like playing chess with an opponent whose moves are hidden! If I'm lucky enough to find an area that a mature buck is using regularly, I try to be random too so he can't pattern me either. It's mostly luck. The worst thing you can do is only hunting the way or the area that worked once before. As BSK noted, we all need to be deadly once we get that buck inside our kill zone. It's a rare thing and if we squander that opportunity, it might be years before it happens again.

 

[Ski]

My issue, I cannot figure out where they bed

Go look for them right now. They're easier to see this time of year and you don't hurt anything by spooking one up.

Imagine being a buck. You're wearing a giant crown of antler that every human in the county wants to kill you for, and every predator wants to eat your delicious flesh. All you've got to keep you alive is your eye, ears, and nose. Where would you sleep?

I would want to be where I could blend in but have a view so I could see you coming from a mile away. I'd want wind at my back so I could smell you coming from a mile away. I'd want to be able to hear everything near and far, then be able to look & see things that sound alarming from a mile away. I want to be isolated from other deer but not too disconnected because I am still a herd animal & rely on other deers' senses & alarms. Last but not least when the time comes that I need to escape/evade danger, I want to be able to get up & sneak out undetected. And when danger gets too close I don't want to get my head tangled up in a mess & not be able to get away. I need to run for cover, not escape from it. A bonus would be the ability to chew my cud while watching the doe trail down below for girls to pass by.

I disagree with a lot of hunters who think big bucks stay in the thick cover. It's just not what I experience. What I do see is does choosing to bed in very thick cover, and bucks busting brush to find them same way a beagle dog searches for bunnies. About the only time I see older bucks laying up in real thick cover is when they're injured or locked down with a doe. The rest of the time they're only in the thick stuff because they're browsing, looking for does, or sneaking away to hide from danger. That said I do find a lot of buck beds near the edge of clearcuts, but rarely ever inside them. That's just my experience so don't take it for gospel. My personal experiences don't apply to everybody else's hunts. It's very likely possible the folks who think big bucks bed in thick cover think so because they've seen it happen. I haven't.

 

[BSK]

Mine is just under 100acres all open mature hardwoods in hill country with closest ag being over a mile away on the other side of a large river. Aside from the ag on the other side of the river, my place is surrounded by miles of mature hardwoods. Deer density isn't very high. Not much cover.

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I'll bet that's the major difference. Between the 100 acres of timber we just had cut (which is all set aside as sanctuary), the two 40-yard-wide powerline right-of-ways that cross our place, all of the past timbering (we cut timber about every 5 years), and all of the places the sun can now get under the hardwood canopy and grow a lot of undergrowth, I would say more than half of our 500 acres are thick enough to be considered very low visibility. Some is not truly "cover habitat" (such as cut timber that has grown back to pole-timber stage), but definitely very low visibility. And the deer use the crap out of all that low visibility habitat to go from one location to the next. Other than during a good acorn year, it's pretty rare to see deer moving in the open hardwoods anymore.

 

[Ski]

I'll bet that's the major difference. Between the 100 acres of timber we just had cut (which is all set aside as sanctuary), the two 40-yard-wide powerline right-of-ways that cross our place, all of the past timbering (we cut timber about every 5 years), and all of the places the sun can now get under the hardwood canopy and grow a lot of undergrowth, I would say more than half of our 500 acres are thick enough to be considered very low visibility. Some is not truly "cover habitat" (such as cut timber that has grown back to pole-timber stage), but definitely very low visibility. And the deer use the crap out of all that low visibility habitat to go from one location to the next. Other than during a good acorn year, it's pretty rare to see deer moving in the open hardwoods anymore.

That's exactly what has me nervous about getting mine logged. I'm afraid it'll negatively impact the buck hunting.

 

[BSK]

That's exactly what has me nervous about getting mine logged. I'm afraid it'll negatively impact the buck hunting.

It makes it more difficult, as older bucks have lots more places to hide and move without being seen. But we've significantly increased how many deer (and older bucks) we can draw to the property, they will stay even under heavy hunting pressure, and they stay all the way through deer season now instead of leaving right after the rut. For me, the gains outweigh the losses.

 

[Ski]

It makes it more difficult, as older bucks have lots more places to hide and move without being seen. But we've significantly increased how many deer (and older bucks) we can draw to the property, they will stay even under heavy hunting pressure, and they stay all the way through deer season now instead of leaving right after the rut. For me, the gains outweigh the losses.

Foresters are doing the stand assessment and basal area measurements now. We'll see what they recommend when they're done. I'd prefer cutting in phases if at all possible so I can gage how it impacts the hunting. I'm afraid if the entire place is cut at same time, and it adversely affects the hunt, then there's nothing I'll be able to do to fix it.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

It makes it more difficult, as older bucks have lots more places to hide and move without being seen. But we've significantly increased how many deer (and older bucks) we can draw to the property, they will stay even under heavy hunting pressure, and they stay all the way through deer season now instead of leaving right after the rut. For me, the gains outweigh the losses.

@Ski , it does make it more difficult, but I'd rather have that than wide open hardwoods. You won't catch a mature deer in our open hardwoods, maybe within a 75 yard buffer BSK talks about. For me, I went on a "buck drought" (literally killing 2 good bucks in 10 years), part of it was due to harder hunting with the lower visibility after logging. But I think the biggest part was me not knowing what the hell I was doing. Definitely in a slump! I've talked about this before, but I think for me, it was a combination of the perfect habitat evolving (after logging) and things finally "clicking" for me - hence, what I said earlier in this thread of "mapping bucks". I was simply sick of going year after year of not killing a good buck. Got my head into it and somehow figured some things out starting around 2012. Killed 10 since then.

For you, you seem to know exactly what you're doing. I think you'll be just fine

 

[Ski]

@Ski , it does make it more difficult, but I'd rather have that than wide open hardwoods. You won't catch a mature deer in our open hardwoods, maybe within a 75 yard buffer BSK talks about. For me, I went on a "buck drought" (literally killing 2 good bucks in 10 years), part of it was due to harder hunting with the lower visibility after logging. But I think the biggest part was me not knowing what the hell I was doing. Definitely in a slump! I've talked about this before, but I think for me, it was a combination of the perfect habitat evolving (after logging) and things finally "clicking" for me - hence, what I said earlier in this thread of "mapping bucks". I was simply sick of going year after year of not killing a good buck. Got my head into it and somehow figured some things out starting around 2012. Killed 10 since then.

For you, you seem to know exactly what you're doing. I think you'll be just fine

I appreciate the encouragement more than you know. I think I've got good representation from my foresters as well. Hopefully it works out well.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

The truth is, no matter which way you cut it, is if you're not balls to the wall with this stuff and not obsessed with it, your not going to get the results you want. You can't half-a$$ this stuff. Figure out the way you learn best and learn deer. There's a very small percentage of hunters that are able to put in the time and effort, whether it be schedule, mindset, or physical ability. Just like your professional life, if you're all in, you're likely going to be successful. If you just show up for a paycheck, you likely won't get very far. Everything goes hand-in-hand in life

 

[Ski]

The truth is, no matter which way you cut it, is if you're not balls to the wall with this stuff and not obsessed with it, your not going to get the results you want. You can't half-a$$ this stuff. Figure out the way you learn best and learn deer. There's a very small percentage of hunters that are able to put in the time and effort, whether it be schedule, mindset, or physical ability. Just like your professional life, if you're all in, you're likely going to be successful. If you just show up for a paycheck, you likely won't get very far. Everything goes hand-in-hand in life

I believe you are correct. Tenacity matters. You've got to want it enough that failing doesn't stop you.

 

[BSK]

Foresters are doing the stand assessment and basal area measurements now. We'll see what they recommend when they're done. I'd prefer cutting in phases if at all possible so I can gage how it impacts the hunting. I'm afraid if the entire place is cut at same time, and it adversely affects the hunt, then there's nothing I'll be able to do to fix it.

If at all possible, talk them into cutting in phases. Every 5 years is perfect (but even every three years isn't bad).

Another option, cut hard in some areas, just take a few trees in others.

Having those habitat variations, instead of all one type of habitat, greatly aids hunting.

 

[Snake]

One point I caught and will hopefully try to add to . Bucks pattering you !! I talk about this stand I had on the Giles Co. lease I had in a saddle and very productive. With that said at almost the very end of our property was some thick hedge , you could see but offered no shots you could see with binos the other property because it went up hill . The deer usually came from the other property fields right out the middle of the saddle or just off the top both trails going north to south. But like I said if you wasn't seeing deer especially bucks you could look every now and then to see deer moving just inside our property line along the hedges. They were skirting my stand !! So this is why I took my climber along each time although most times I didn't use it because we had plenty of ladder and hang ons. But out at the end there were two trees I could climb one on each side of the top. Killed many decent bucks using this method . When your not seeing deer especially bucks they may have pattered you !! Then you may have to do in season scouting to find them. Don't be afraid to change up something if your not seeing any bucks.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

If at all possible, talk them into cutting in phases. Every 5 years is perfect (but even every three years isn't bad).

Another option, cut hard in some areas, just take a few trees in others.

Having that habitat variations, instead of all one type of habitat, greatly aids hunting.

@Ski - Completely agree with BSK and will never discount his knowledge!

There are a few different approaches I see: one is to cut in patches over time- different levels of growth over a 20 or so year period to get different levels of growth (always having thick cover somewhere). That's a great strategy and will never go against that strategy. We did that per BSK's advice years ago

We did that exactly and I implemented something else. I got certified in burning. So, we had all these patches of thick cover and now have new areas recently logged areas to burn. We now have no desire to log, more to burn and maintain. Plenty of areas for hack n squirt / girdle and spray left to do, but logging is mostly done. Basically we have 30 acres of food plots and 200 acres of select cut spread out in patches. We will burn those every few years to keep natural browse and cover….strategically depending on growth. After the hack n squirt and girdle areas are defined, it's all up to a burning on a continuous basis. The main thing - it just has to be maintained!