Prowler
Well-Known Member
5.5 in 2014 and 127 gross
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What will he score?
- Thread starter Andy S.
- Start date
dgb7mm
Well-Known Member
Knowing what he scored, I can see what you mean Andy. If a person only had the pics you posted it would be very decieving.
^^^^ Hey hey hey Don, don't spill the beans...... :mrgreen:
I agree, but at some point, we have to consider the buck's body size, make some assumptions and give it your best. We may still be under or over, but we will most likely be in the ballpark.dgb7mm":389ose0p said:
Prowler
Well-Known Member
Is it the same buck as your avatar pic ? If so the beams and spread are more than I thought but the left 2&3 and right 1 are shorter than I thought. looks like he is a reasonably good sized deer even without any more pics. Sticking with my original 127 but I've been wrong before.
128"
fairchaser
Well-Known Member
Andy S.":1puo2wql said:
Ok, I see where he's doubled everything now. Still not enough though. He's way bigger than 123.
Yessir, same buck.Prowler":btuao5j1 said:
FLTENNHUNTER1
Well-Known Member
143
SelphLogging
Well-Known Member
Knowing now what it scores, because I did a little research, I would love to see a score sheet on that deer. I don't see where the longest tine can be over 8.5". At best 20" spread. Main beams maybe a 23.5" and a 21". Bases at smallest place between brow and burr, looks to be no more than 4.5-4.75. Please post score sheet once you spill the beans! Great deer either way though Andy!
SelphLogging
Well-Known Member
Fairchaser, please give me your break down of it.
For what it is worth, I guessed the deer at 4.5+ and 115-120" tops in 2013, and 5.5+ and 135" in 2014. I was fortunate enough to kill this buck in December and was pleasantly surprised at how much I had underestimated him. He was aged at 4.5 by Ames staff and at 5.5+ by myself (TR&W method), and he was later aged at 6.5 by the cementum annuli aging method. He ended up grossing 144 2/8" with a 22"+ inside spread, 23"+ and 24"+ beams, and field dressed 170 lbs (if I recall correctly). I use this example as yet another case where myself and many others, both at Ames and on here would have underscored him, and some by 20"+. I realize you can overshoot one too, and I realize you guys here only had few pics to go on, but I only had a few more myself. I will see if I can dig them up later today, as well as the jawbone pic, and post here for all to see. Ames has the official score sheet and I never took a picture of it because I was helping a guest of mine retrieve his 3 does that day while they scored my deer. Thanks to all of you who participated in the guessing game! :tu:
Found the jawbone out in my shop just now and snapped these.
tree_ghost
Well-Known Member
Wow I was low by 12"....! Very interesting. I know that the IR flash cameras always throw off my mass measurements because they make the antlers look so thin but I underestimated tines also on that buck. Thanks for that thread Andy I really enjoyed that n
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TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
Still, at the end of the day, most "guessers" were off less than 15". 
The fact that no one over-guessed this one is indicative of some of the usual criteria we employ in our guesses being at least somewhat "off" or missing. I suspect if more pics and more info about this buck had been available, those average guesses would have been off by less than 10", and maybe more equally weighted between higher & lower rather than all being lower.
It was a good exercise that just goes to show having more info does matter.
The fact that no one over-guessed this one is indicative of some of the usual criteria we employ in our guesses being at least somewhat "off" or missing. I suspect if more pics and more info about this buck had been available, those average guesses would have been off by less than 10", and maybe more equally weighted between higher & lower rather than all being lower.
It was a good exercise that just goes to show having more info does matter.
Prowler
Well-Known Member
Beams and spread were definitely more than I thought! And some tines also. Great buck sir!
I don't have access to the score sheet, but this will get you close:Fleet Fox":3ozdlivu said:
MB = 48
Spread = 23
Mass = 32
Tines = 37
Total = 140 without any of the additional 1/8 measurements. Notice the forward lean on several of the tines; this always gets you a little more credit than what the "height" of the tine appears. There may have been some more things worth mentioning, but that is all I can think of at the moment.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
Nothing to do with "score",
just an observation some might find of interest, especially if you're usually more concerned about "age" than score:
The G-1's on mature bucks tend to begin higher above the head than what you'll typically see on younger bucks.
Notice the distance between the hairline and where those G-1's begin coming out the main beams.
This is just one of many antler "characteristics" that tend to be more prevalent with older bucks' antlers.
Antlers are generally a poor indicator of age, but there are still certain characteristics which are most often indicative of older ages. One of the best is basal circumference (for most TN bucks I'm talking something exceeding 4 1/2 inches), although some fully mature bucks will have "skinny" antlers. Comparing the diameter of the main beams right above the hairline to the diameter of the eyeballs is a quick way of estimating this basal circumference. If the antler appears wider than the eyeball, you're likely seeing an antler circumference exceeding 4 inches.
Another "older" trait is "fat" tines, but again, some will have "skinny" tines. Beam length can correlate well with "older", but it can be harder to guess, compared to just saying "fat" or "massive bases". Of course, antler width can be useful in separating most yearlings from 2 1/2 and older, but some older bucks will have "narrow" racks of under 15" (less than from ear tip to ear tip).
Putting together multiple antler characteristics, you can sometimes use this info to help make a quick field decision, especially if it matters to you whether you're about to pull the trigger on a 3 1/2 or older buck vs. a 3 1/2 or younger buck. These "older" traits tend to stand out more at 4 1/2 and older, but most particularly at 5 1/2 and 6 1/2 when mature bucks are typically still in great health. So when I can't get a good look at the body, I'm quickly trying to study those antler characteristics for age clues, mainly to avoid killing a "top-end" antlered 2 1/2 or 3 1/2-yr-old buck (the ones which could turn into true monsters only by living another year or two).
Body profile (especially during the rut) is usually a much better age indicator than all the antler traits combined, but sometimes you don't get to see much body, but do get a good look at the antlers.
just an observation some might find of interest, especially if you're usually more concerned about "age" than score:
The G-1's on mature bucks tend to begin higher above the head than what you'll typically see on younger bucks.
Notice the distance between the hairline and where those G-1's begin coming out the main beams.
This is just one of many antler "characteristics" that tend to be more prevalent with older bucks' antlers.
Antlers are generally a poor indicator of age, but there are still certain characteristics which are most often indicative of older ages. One of the best is basal circumference (for most TN bucks I'm talking something exceeding 4 1/2 inches), although some fully mature bucks will have "skinny" antlers. Comparing the diameter of the main beams right above the hairline to the diameter of the eyeballs is a quick way of estimating this basal circumference. If the antler appears wider than the eyeball, you're likely seeing an antler circumference exceeding 4 inches.
Another "older" trait is "fat" tines, but again, some will have "skinny" tines. Beam length can correlate well with "older", but it can be harder to guess, compared to just saying "fat" or "massive bases". Of course, antler width can be useful in separating most yearlings from 2 1/2 and older, but some older bucks will have "narrow" racks of under 15" (less than from ear tip to ear tip).
Putting together multiple antler characteristics, you can sometimes use this info to help make a quick field decision, especially if it matters to you whether you're about to pull the trigger on a 3 1/2 or older buck vs. a 3 1/2 or younger buck. These "older" traits tend to stand out more at 4 1/2 and older, but most particularly at 5 1/2 and 6 1/2 when mature bucks are typically still in great health. So when I can't get a good look at the body, I'm quickly trying to study those antler characteristics for age clues, mainly to avoid killing a "top-end" antlered 2 1/2 or 3 1/2-yr-old buck (the ones which could turn into true monsters only by living another year or two).
Body profile (especially during the rut) is usually a much better age indicator than all the antler traits combined, but sometimes you don't get to see much body, but do get a good look at the antlers.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
Meanwhile, no aging technique is perfect, not even close.
As Andy has already stated, his buck of this thread was aged by wildlife biologists to be 4 1/2 (or older), he thought 5 1/12 (or older), and a lab said 6 1/2. I'd bet the lab had it correct, but these labs have also been known to have some high error rates, not because their science isn't good, but because of human error, such as mislabeling teeth of one deer vs. another.
By the way, it's my opinion that the majority of TN bucks would achieve their highest antler score at the age of 6 1/2. Some have observed slightly higher average scores for 5 1/2, but I would speculate there's been a lot of mis-aging, since many aged at 5 1/2 may actually have been 6 1/2, while many of those aged at 6 1/2 may have been 7 1/2 (an age at which score does typically decline, at least slightly). The greatest portion of "score" tends to come from tine length, and bucks 7 1/2 and older commonly start losing tine length (yet may still be gaining overall mass).
As Andy has already stated, his buck of this thread was aged by wildlife biologists to be 4 1/2 (or older), he thought 5 1/12 (or older), and a lab said 6 1/2. I'd bet the lab had it correct, but these labs have also been known to have some high error rates, not because their science isn't good, but because of human error, such as mislabeling teeth of one deer vs. another.
By the way, it's my opinion that the majority of TN bucks would achieve their highest antler score at the age of 6 1/2. Some have observed slightly higher average scores for 5 1/2, but I would speculate there's been a lot of mis-aging, since many aged at 5 1/2 may actually have been 6 1/2, while many of those aged at 6 1/2 may have been 7 1/2 (an age at which score does typically decline, at least slightly). The greatest portion of "score" tends to come from tine length, and bucks 7 1/2 and older commonly start losing tine length (yet may still be gaining overall mass).
