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Your Thoughts On Season Start Date!

th88 said:
Sort of. There were still 5,163 turkeys reported from May 4 to May 31 last year. 556 being jakes and 46 being hens.

May 15 - May 31, only 1,828.

Take away the 2nd half of May, yeah basically irrelevant. But take away those first 2 weeks and you are saving a lot of turkey. And gobbler carryover drastically helps hunting quality on those lean years without many 2 year old birds.
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Exactly...

in 2023, there were 23,651 birds killed April 15 thru 30 (the first 16 days of season). Of which 1958 were jakes and 103 were hens. That works out to 79.7% of the ENTIRE 6 week season (29,661) in the first 16 days.

Now I full agree male carryover is critical. But not for improved hunting opportunity the following season, but rather to ensure males are available to breed jennies and renesting hens in June and July. No males in June and July... no fertilized eggs. So IF we are killing too many males (and I'm not saying we are in most locales... we definitely are in others), the simple solution would be to outlaw the killing of jakes. That almost makes up for all the birds killed in the entire month of May!

Now when you get to the last weekend of the season... May 27, 28th last year.... a whopping 432 birds were killed (44 of which were jakes) in the entire state, or 1.5% of the entire 6 week season in the last weekend.

I guess my point is you are all about hunter opportunity. How do you increase availability without harming the resource? I would argue that all the harming of the resource occurs in the first 16 days of the season, regardless of what those dates are. And based on nest initiation data (which is becoming exhaustive), full correlation in TN is showing that average peak nest initiation doesn't even occur until the last week of April. Knowing that hens initially mate 7 to 10 days prior to initiating nests, and mate repeatedly throughout the breeding season if males are available, it just makes sense that removal of males prior to breeding has the potential to be counterproductive.

The delay in the season opening last year certainly didn't decrease hunter success (which actually increased from years prior, despite decreasing from a 3 bird to 2 bird limit!!!!!). Has it been proven yet to improve poult recruitment? Too early to say... maybe just a coincidence TN had one of it's best hatches in decades last year. But if it DOESNT hurt hunting, and might help nesting success... why not leave it as is???
 
th88 said:
Everywhere. There is a TON of data in peer reviewed publications in regards to nesting dates. The past decade there have been substantial numbers of hens radio'd/GPS'd and tracked. Other data collected such as nest success also hasn't really changed much as some would think. That indicates hens are getting bred and not dropping infertile eggs.

Getting poults to survive is a much bigger issuer than hens getting bred and hatching.
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what is the average percentage of GPS tracked hens not initiating nests at all?
 
Popcorn said:
Where does this data come from?
A hen will begin nesting when her body begins producing eggs. Whether she is bred or not.
Weather, stress, predation, health, available food not just length of day determine individual nest initation.
Successful breeding and optimal fertilization is based on no more than 10 hens per male and fewer is better. Many flocks far exceed that ratio. A gobbler mounting a hen does not insure a successful coupling. Anus to anus contact is only successful when the gobbler has available sperm, there is not an endless supply. Every time a hen submits to a gobbler, she risks injury with bacterial infection which often ends the nest success and may well kill the hen.
An egg that was not fertilized will not hatch, will rot and give off an odor that will reveal the nest's location to a predator or will burst and reduce viability of other eggs and introduce a bad bacterial presence in the nest.
If anything move it another week or 2 later an shorten it as well.
I want to see Turkeys be successful and don't care about Hunter success without the prior!
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I agree with most of what you say here... but one thing is incorrect... Hens can absolutely tell which eggs in the nest are infertile, and will push them out of the nest and away from the rest of the clutch during incubation. Mama hen is SMART, no way she is going to let one bad egg spoil the bunch. She can also tell which eggs are quitters (were fertile to start with, developed for a period of time, then quit developing/ died within the shell). She likewise will push out the quitters during incubation.
 
th88 said:
Everywhere. There is a TON of data in peer reviewed publications in regards to nesting dates. The past decade there have been substantial numbers of hens radio'd/GPS'd and tracked. Other data collected such as nest success also hasn't really changed much as some would think. That indicates hens are getting bred and not dropping infertile eggs.

Getting poults to survive is a much bigger issuer than hens getting bred and hatching.
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Does this data account for late nesters and renests?
Were these studies performed where ideal flocks existed under ideal circumstances?
What were percentages of total nests were nests initiated at the appointed time vs all others?
 
TheLBLman said:
And it's not "just" about more successful breeding.

The April 15th start date SAVES a ton of longbeards from being slaughtered by non-resident hunters who were abusing TN's early start and (until recently) 4-bird limit.

Most of the non-resident hunters coming for TN's early slaughter were avid, highly accomplished turkey hunters; many of the kind who could easily take 4 long-beards in a single week of hunting.

Delaying the season 2 weeks has greatly reduced this slaughter because this particular sub-set of hunters is going to be turkey hunting somewhere the 1st 2 weeks of April, just now not in TN.

The big problem WAS that most states were opening later than TN, so TN was a huge draw to non-resident hunters. It still is, but we're now on a more level playing field with many other turkey-hunting states. As prime example, we were opening 2 weeks earlier than Kentucky, and our spring limit was 4, while KY's was 2. This difference brought a ton of avid, accomplished turkey hunters to Tennessee, killing disproportionately a lot more turkeys than resident TN hunters.

IMO, the TN turkey season now opening mid-April is a much "fairer" date for resident TN turkey hunters. Non-residents are still welcome.
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I don't think there is data available on your claim that many oosers are coming and slaughtering 4 birds in a single week? I would bet that the number of oosers killing 4 birds in a week number below 20. Also is there data that shows oosers are killing more birds than residents in the first weeks? IMHO I don't believe that to be true. Not even close really.. I don't think the hunters toolbox provides this information which I think is a huge miss for TWRA.

I do think there was an overcrowding issue with early season out of staters on WMA's and the late start helped alleviate some of that issue. I also think their is too much emphasis on hunting regulations by what goes on at WMA's which only are about 5% of TN hunting land.

The late season start definitely helps public land hunters which I still hunt public land on occasion and sure wouldn't mind it going back to being less crowded...
 
megalomaniac said:
I agree with most of what you say here... but one thing is incorrect... Hens can absolutely tell which eggs in the nest are infertile, and will push them out of the nest and away from the rest of the clutch during incubation. Mama hen is SMART, no way she is going to let one bad egg spoil the bunch. She can also tell which eggs are quitters (were fertile to start with, developed for a period of time, then quit developing/ died within the shell). She likewise will push out the quitters during incubation.
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I don't deny what you describe is accurate however I have found nests as I describe as well. My theory is simply young hens may not be as apt to clean the nest as older hens. As well some mothers are simply better at their jobs than others.
 
I wish they would go to 3 birds and move it back one week and take back that stupid last week of May.. This ain't Maine...

Kind of indifferent of the late start with only 2 birds. My season lasted about 3 hours last spring, never got that chess match I love so much... My fault I know but saving tags is a learned behavior I guess... Something that has bit me in the butt before...
 
The delay in the season opening last year certainly didn't decrease hunter success (which actually increased from years prior, despite decreasing from a 3 bird to 2 bird limit!!!!!). Has it been proven yet to improve poult recruitment? Too early to say... maybe just a coincidence TN had one of it's best hatches in decades last year. But if it DOESNT hurt hunting, and might help nesting success... why not leave it as is???
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I thought the best we had in decades was in 22 without a delay? Like in Mississippi best since.1994 , as the article pointed out that I posted it was all over the South east, Either way we have had great hatches the last 3/4 years . The common denominator was the weather and I am just glad it's turned out that way for all of us. So if we have great hatches the way it was in 22 and before , you could also phrase the question, why not just leave it like it was? Again it's just a matter of wether you want to hunt more in April or May. No one is wrong here as both openers have proven successful. The limit of 3 was never an issue as TWRA has proven year after year with data that most hunters, I believe it was 90 percent or more that do harvest a bird killed 1 or two gobblers at most, so that is why the kill stayed about the same not that many killed 3 to begin with. Moving a week back towards the old opener is a great compromise.
 
th88 said:
Everywhere. There is a TON of data in peer reviewed publications in regards to nesting dates. The past decade there have been substantial numbers of hens radio'd/GPS'd and tracked. Other data collected such as nest success also hasn't really changed much as some would think. That indicates hens are getting bred and not dropping infertile eggs.

Getting poults to survive is a much bigger issuer than hens getting bred and hatching.
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Not being a pain here but most studies are performed where the most data can be gained for the least investment of time and money. Ideal circumstances for a study produces data about ideal circumstances. Overall flawed data.

"Exhaustive nest initiation data" would not be exhaustive if it were gathered under the worst circumstances available.

Yes poult survival is critical but does not supersede nest success. Nests fall to the same causes that poults do.
 
Popcorn said:
I am convinced from a property managers point of view as well as a turkey hunters that the delay was and is the right move and any retreat from that is just surrendering ground gained.
I am surprised that there is little to no conversation about the benefits to successful nesting from the hen angle! They are more consequential than most know. No one knows how many nest sites are interrupted by hunters, Every encountered nest is likely a nest revealed to a predator! Hens injured by errant pellets, careless shooters or from just being unseen (happens more than most want to admit) will often stop nesting and end or delay egg production to try to heal. Flocks under high stress from hunter pressures added to normal predator pressures may abandon areas including nests already started there. There are many factors related to wild turkey success, all are important.

The success of the wild turkey as a game bird should be based on what is best for the species alone! Never should hunter preferences be a consideration!
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I agree completely!!Some are just interested more in how many they can kill instead of the good of the turkeys!
 
Bgoodman30 said:
Itake back that stupid last week of May.. This ain't Maine...
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But if birds are behaving and just as killable last week of May/ 1st week of June in TN the same as Maine, why not have season still open later in TN?

I guess from a hunting standpoint, I see no reason NOT to have season open later, since birds are just as easily killed. And there is no question the majority of hens are bred.

Personally, I'd like to see season open May 1 and run until June 15
 
megalomaniac said:
But if birds are behaving and just as killable last week of May/ 1st week of June in TN the same as Maine, why not have season still open later in TN?

I guess from a hunting standpoint, I see no reason NOT to have season open later, since birds are just as easily killed. And there is no question the majority of hens are bred.

Personally, I'd like to see season open May 1 and run until June 15
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Just my personal opinion. Late season hunting not near as fun for a good number of reasons. I prefer hunting in cooler conditions also why I'm not a fan of the velvet hunt…

If they didn't open season until May 1 I'd be picketing in front of Ellington Ag or blocking traffic like a crazy liberal. 😂
 
Bgoodman30 said:
Itake back that stupid last week of May.. This ain't Maine...
Click to expand...
But if birds are behaving and just as killable last week of May/ 1st week of June in TN the same as Maine, why not have season still open later in TN?

I guess from a hunting standpoint, I see no reason NOT to have season open later, since birds are just as easily killed. And there is no question the majority of hens are bred.

Personally, I'd like to see season open May 1 and run until June 15
Bgoodman30 said:
Just my personal opinion. Late season hunting not near as fun for a good number of reasons. I prefer hunting in cooler conditions also why I'm not a fan of the velvet hunt…

If they didn't open season until May 1 I'd be picketing in front of Ellington Ag or blocking traffic like a crazy liberal. 😂
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I guess living in MS the past 27 years has made me more tolerant of the heat! I think I killed 30 mosquitoes yest pm while deer hunting. I've actually noticed the rare mornings in turkey season that are 30 degrees at sunrise really shut our birds up, while a 30 deg morn in TN doesn't phase turkeys at all.
 
Tn Joe said:
Shorter season and no decoys = more turkeys
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could much better shotshells/chokes be killing turkeys that used to not be in range? folks keep telling me "it will kill birds out to 50-60 yards..." that's near double the distance most birds used to be shot at...i shoot 5s or 6s in my ten gauge, but have shot nearly all of my birds at twenty-five yards or less, sometimes much less. i just wanted a denser pattern...
 
Wooden Arrow said:
could much better shotshells/chokes be killing turkeys that used to not be in range? folks keep telling me "it will kill birds out to 50-60 yards..." that's near double the distance most birds used to be shot at...i shoot 5s or 6s in my ten gauge, but have shot nearly all of my birds at twenty-five yards or less, sometimes much less. i just wanted a denser pattern...
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Im like you,most kills are 30 yards or less,dont want them to close either!!
 
deerfever said:
Yes Sir! I have never understood that at all, I really like the turkey coordinator in Mississippi. I had the opportunity to speak with him one time on the phone, read numerous articles he has been interviewed in and he seems like a great guy. If the Chamberlain theory was true LBL which has been delayed since the 80s here in TN would need turkey crossing signs every mile or so, and Arkansas would be the leading turkey destination in the country. Lol
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LBL would probably still be a go to place if there werent 9 million hogs destroying the woods.
 

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