Soft Talker
Well-Known Member
Pretty obvious you must not be much of a "Gladesman" to make an ignorant statement like that.
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Help Support TNDeer:
Your Thoughts On Season Start Date!
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prstide
Well-Known Member
Keep everything where it is and there should be no compromise from the standpoint of changes in the near future unless it's moving the end date back to where it was historically(mid-May). Compromise and changes from hunters whining is exactly what got us into the situation we're in to begin with.
Those of you who love Mississippi, the season structure, and their turkey coordinator should go hunt Mississippi. "Chamberlain's dominant gobbler talk is just a theory"— the same could be said about Einstein's theories and a plethora of others. Until it's disproven there is no grounds to disregard.
If you care about conserving the resource then you should be understanding to any changes made that might limit opportunity in the short term for the sustained opportunity in the future. If you are more concerned about "tagging out" or posting your hash-tagged kill pics on social media, you're part of the problem.
Those of you who love Mississippi, the season structure, and their turkey coordinator should go hunt Mississippi. "Chamberlain's dominant gobbler talk is just a theory"— the same could be said about Einstein's theories and a plethora of others. Until it's disproven there is no grounds to disregard.
If you care about conserving the resource then you should be understanding to any changes made that might limit opportunity in the short term for the sustained opportunity in the future. If you are more concerned about "tagging out" or posting your hash-tagged kill pics on social media, you're part of the problem.
Soft Talker
Well-Known Member
These new dates are ridiculous, and based off horsesh#t theories. This is not Maine, nor is it Mississippi. Season was set up fine the way the original "biologists" planned it. Majority of adult Hens are bred, for the first time, well before the first weekend in April, all across the state of Tn, including the mountains. Part of the experience for me, like others have stated, is seeing the woods progress into Spring as I hunt each week. I will admit, I enjoy hunting till the end of May, but would be fine if it went back to the original season structure. Gobblers that have survived thru the second weekend in May, here in the mid South, deserve the rest of late Spring, into early Summer, to continue the breeding of unbred, willing Hens without disturbance.
MickThompson
Well-Known Member
Calling yourself a soft talker is fairly bigger stretch
prstide
Well-Known Member
Then go sit in the woods scouting the first 2 weeks of April so you don't miss out on seeing the woods progress.
I sure wished I had the resources and time to flood my local wma that i turkey hunt with hundreds of dog proof traps. I've taken a good bit around my house but no where near enough.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
Biggest thing you're missing is how much worse things could be if LBL had not had a delayed opening for turkey season.
Next, the effect of the feral pigs is overstated.
We hate them, but they are not a primary driver of the turkey declination.
Pigs are nothing new in many places that have and have had decent turkey populations.
Talking about larger areas like the Cherokee National Forest, Big South Fork National Recreation Area, and Catoosa WMA. I believe all these big areas have more pigs than LBL.
I certainly don't have all the answers, don't think any one thing is the answer.
It's just that various "factors" either help or hurt the ongoing turkey population.
The delayed seasoning opening to mid-April: Helps.
But among the factors that have most contributed to turkeys not thriving at LBL, significant I would say, has been an increase in nest-raiding predators (raccoons, skunks, possums, coyotes, crows, even snakes, and yes, some by feral pigs). The main reason for this began with the progressive decrease in small-game hunting and less fur trapping.
Couple the poor nesting success with progressing increases in raptor predation (owls, hawks, eagles), and we've had a significant decline in the turkey population, despite a delayed opening date, despite fewer hunting days than "statewide". It's noteworthy that owl, hawk, and eagle populations have never been this high, at least not in the past 125 years or so for this area.
Some of the increased predation is also habitat related, as LBL's habitat is simply not diverse enough, not enough widespread nesting/escape cover. Wildlife managers would like to change this; the central government will not allow it. So there's that.
Still, as with the near extinction of former robust populations of bobwhite quail,
we must surely be missing some other contributing factors to the turkey population's decline?
On the bright side, TN statewide nesting success & poult survival does seem to be above historical average for the past year. I suspect the delayed opening was a factor in this.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
My thoughts as well.I really liked the later date last year. It gives a few more early April days just to think about fishing instead of both turkey hunting and fishing.
One need not miss the beauty of early spring,
using the bogus excuse of turkey season opening too late!
Instead of turkey hunting the 1st 2 weeks of April, I'm not just doing more fishing, and continuing the war against the pigs and predators!
But if you're an avid, accomplished turkey hunter, who wants to do nothing but turkey hunt from mid-March to June, well, you still can. Just be a non-resident hunter in all those states opening earlier than TN now, and staying open later. I have friends who do this every year, and they are turkey-killing machines.
Point is, I'm not missing the beauty of early April,
and neither should any of us.
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Soft Talker
Well-Known Member
Be a cold day in hell before you find me "sitting" in the woods, first 2 weeks of April, without a shotgun in my hand. I'm a Turkey Hunter, not watcher.
As far as killing "all the gobblers". There is a lot of great recent banding data out there and band return rates are much lower than you'd expect. Now hunters could kill banded birds and not call it in, but I'd like to think most hunters would be calling that band in. In one of the most comprehensive studies, annual turkey season survival for adult gobblers was over 40% with a sample size of over 500 gobblers spread across the southeast. Some of these birds residing on HEAVILY hunted public lands.
Your south MS location in the piney woods, where I've lived and hunted myself, is a minority in the fact that I do agree that most adult gobblers could be taken off some tracts due to the thick woods, crap habitat (corresponding with poor turkey numbers), number of outlaw turkey hunters (hunting before season, bag limit, baiting, etc.). When you have just a couple adult gobblers on a 1,000 acres of pine/yaupon and they are hitting a food plot hard early season, yeah you may could do some damage especially if the next nearest adult gobbler is a couple miles away. But in areas of good habitat and decent turkey numbers, i believe you are grossly over-exaggerating the percent of the adult gobbler population that is killed.
I am about preserving hunting opportunity based on the science. If we ever start getting hard evidence that we are shooting ourselves in the foot and HUNTING is part of the reason for the wild turkey decline, I'll fully support any change necessary. But if hunting is the problem, we have much bigger issues. That'd look real good from the anti-hunter's perspective "TURKEY HUNTERS ARE THE REASON TURKEYS HAVE DECLINED!" Think about that a minute. Ouch.
Of course the delay didn't decrease success. Why would it? The season opened when way more birds were suicidal and ready to die. The decrease in bag limit could also help to increase success, as once hunters got #2 they were out of the woods and it left more birds for the remaining hunters.
TN had a nice bump in reproduction in 2021 and 2022. Before any changes were made. Arkansas first made changes over a decade ago without any improvement in reproduction. They finally saw some recent improvement when virtually every other state around them did as well (even including those states that open "too early".)
A quick lit review shows numbers of ~90% initiation in one study. 83% in the big TN study.
So its safe to say as high as 20% of hens aren't initiating nests some years, which will fluctuate according to the number of juvenille hens in the population.
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Yes.
Ideal flocks under ideal circumstances? You mean, non-hunted populations? There is actually a lot of data on a site like that. And it does show slightly better reproduction than the non-hunted site. But this is a sample size of one.
Not quite clear on this question.
That is starting to show up more in the data. If you got a good momma, she needs protected at all costs!
Agreed 100% on the sentence.
What do exactly do you mean by ideal circumstances? And the worst circumstances?
Another factor I haven't saw mentioned yet that is showing up more in the data is hen survival AFTER the nest hatches. Some studies are finding rather alarming rates of hen mortality after she successfully hatches her brood.
100% truth!
Funny you mention that, because I do live in MS near the TN line and the delayed TN opener does nothing but BENEFIT me! As it stands, I have 3 opening days spread weeks apart within a 30 minute drive. In 2021 and 2022 I took advantage of the delayed openers in certain regions of TN to get a crack at the unpressured birds. Didn't make it to TN last year due to scheduling conflicts, but I'll be there every year as long as its opening mid-April. Push the start date back a week and I can't justify the license as much because I have Alabama opening at the same time.
Bgoodman30
Well-Known Member
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Yep all this talk kind of goes out the window when we look about what happened in southern middle counties... There is something else there...
deerhunter10
Well-Known Member
Decoys have killed way more birds then upgraded chokes and shot has ever thought of. Cawling behind a decoy in a 50 acre field doesn't have anything to do with chokes and shells. I know of people that don't even take a call with them much less know of to use them.
deerhunter10
Well-Known Member
A major something. We had a farm in giles County that went to a good place to turkeys to absolutely no turkeys anywhere around within miles within just a couple years. Our place on Hickman maury line is in the middle of the samething happening. Went from one of a heck of a place to turkey hunt to not turkey hunting it at all for 3 year this year the 4th to try to save the few turkeys we have on it.
To simplify this;
Best of circumstances being where all or a vast majority of factors are in favor of success.
From habitat to food, hunter and predator pressure to weather and disease, male to female ratio, breeding success and so on
Worst of circumstances being the polar opposite where a majority of factors are to the detriment of success.
The comparison will produce very different data and we don't see many studies take place where the worst circumstances make data collection difficult with low numbers of participants to collect data from.
This is known to me as well, not from research data but from observations and logical deduction.
I raise turkeys (heritage breeds) as well have been an avid watcher / hunter of wild birds. Clutch production itself is taxing but incubation can be a real test of strength and health. The last 7 to 10 days of incubation is when a hen will fully commit to a nest and sit tight no matter the threat even in certain death. Once they are hatched she must begin teaching them by example how to find food, keep them warmed repeatedly as well as feed herself back to health. Recovery from brooding can be a big challenge, protecting and providing for her brood often exposes her to predators. Lone hens seem to have a higher risk than partnered hens. Larger brood numbers almost always occur when 2 or 3 broods join or a brood is joined by a hen without a brood in my observations.
This does play into the "ideal circumstances" mentioned before where a hen in the worst of circumstances has little chance of success
Expand on this.
What I see it seems, non-nesters are the more likely old hens, young hens seem to be very eggy but are far less successful their first year. Young hens are also more likely to be renests in what I see. Excluding very late hatched young hens of course.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
That is only the case in areas that have lots of fields.
Decoys would be essentially counter-productive in most big woods areas, again, like the Cherokee National Forest. I'll personally argue they are counter-productive for most accomplished turkey hunters who have previously learned to turkey hunt without decoys.
But concerning the use of decoys, outside outlawing them (which would never see 100% legal compliance), NOTHING has done more to prevent the killing of turkeys over decoys as much as having our season open 2 weeks later than it did.
Yes, many these same turkeys are still being killed, two weeks later, but they're not being killed so much over decoys (as they were when the season opened earlier).
My thinking is we should be more careful as to what we want to outlaw, and focus more on simple game laws that are more easily enforced. Outlawing decoys would not stop the use of decoys, only decrease it by the honest hunters.
While I'm totally against legalizing turkey hunting over grain bait (corn, wheat, etc.), the fact that killing turkeys over bait hasn't stopped poachers from killing turkeys over bait. Ask any county wildlife officer what percentage of the turkeys kills, do they believe, are currently being killed over bait.
My personal "guess" on a TN statewide basis is probably around 20%.
Never mind killing turkeys over bait has always been illegal.
However, I do believe the 2-week delay has decreased the effectiveness of baiting during turkey season, therefore we are losing a smaller percentage of turkeys to poachers because of this 2-week delay.
