Your Thoughts On Season Start Date!

[prstide]

Settle down there "hunt coordinator".

Live look in at Soft Talker:

 

[Bgoodman30]

Yes Sir! I wish they had just ended it with the old dates. Even if they move it back a week in 2025 just end it under the old date. Again if they don't move it back a week , no problem. I am an old diehard and will hunt them no matter what . If someone post up something or over time evidence shows the delay is what best for our turkeys, I wil admit I was wrong and be on board. No problem at all.

I think it has more to do with predator swamping. Dominant birds breed undisturbed hens initiate nests more at the same time vs spread out over a month or two. Although I have seen birds with a 15+ hen harem in mid May on a property with little pressure. This example showed me there is something else there though that may be beyond our control…

The delay may help a little especially with habitat improvements and predator management but it's not bringing any populations back..

 

[Soft Talker]

My a## is fine son. I'll let my years of experience continue to dictate my opinions on Turkey Hunting. You, and everyone else are free to do the same.

 

[prstide]

My a## is fine son. I'll let my years of experience continue to dictate my opinions on Turkey Hunting. You, and everyone else are free to do the same.

I hope you(and your fine @$$) have a very safe and successful turkey season come mid-April.

 

[megalomaniac]

A quick lit review shows numbers of ~90% initiation in one study. 83% in the big TN study.

So its safe to say as high as 20% of hens aren't initiating nests some years, which will fluctuate according to the number of juvenille hens in the population.

I think nest initiation rates will be the single most important thing to trend over time. Hens who have not mated will usually not initiate a nest. They produce eggs, but just drop them randomly on the landscape. Seeing nest initiation rates improve will mean something is working. Seeing them decline means there is yet another problem (in addition to predators, weather, etc etc).

 

[Kelljp]

Didn't think I would like it, but it did reduce the number of hunters I encountered after the 1st week , Had to hunt a little harder but still tagged out..

 

[megalomaniac]

Here is what I am getting from this thread if you are against the delayed opener you are a" grip/ grinner/ whiner". Even though there is a study and evidence that it makes no difference whatsoever in reproductive success here in TN for our turkeys done by Dr. Harper involving numerous hens ? You must believe Chamberlains theory that has zero evidence to support it or you are a grip/grin/ whiner and you are simply in it for the kills, even though everyone in TN can only kill 2 birds? If you kill more than two you are not a grip/ grinner /whiner you would actually be a poacher. If you talk to a turkey director from another state asking a question as a non resident and say he was a great guy, you must now hunt in that state. We should set our season around Non residents ( numerous options have been given to curb non residents)and corn baiting poachers as this will stop them from poaching. Even though we had a great hatch in 21 , record breaking hatch in 22 , only the hatch in 23 counts as it was the only one during a delay , it couldn't possibly have been that the dry weather was the common denominator in all three of these years. Also you can get out in the woods and listen the first two weeks of April if they keep the delayed opener, so I would assume if they move it back a week in 2025 the guys that are passionate about the theory will sit out the opener just listening so the hens can get bred and start in mid April ( just an assumption, so as not to be a grip/grinner). What we all need to realize is having a different opinion is okay, it doesn't make you against turkeys if you want to move the season back one week towards our normal opener. Simply means with absolutely zero evidence that it helps the turkeys at all, some people would rather hunt another week in April as opposed to another in May. Seems like a legitimate compromise for all involved to me. Again you could always open private a week earlier and public mid April solves it for everyone the guys that want the mid April opener have it on public thus curbing non residents, the guys that have private simply sit out and let hens get bred if they choose to do so or you go hunt the opener on private land and enjoy another week of April hunting!

I agree with you... there is no hard scientific data yet proving April 1st vs April 15 makes no difference either way.

But if the HUNTING itself is better opening mid April vs April 1, why would you not want to take advantage of that?

Did you have a worse hunting experience with the 2w delay?

 

[deerfever]

One study, that really wasn't anywhere near long enough and eventually ran out of funding, is not enough to base the proper management of the wild turkey in our state. It's perfectly fine to have a differing opinion but everything you're offering is nothing. I read all the butthurt threads last year too of how the delay ruined people's seasons blah blah blah—how bad would your season be ruined if there wasn't a huntable population in our state and you were forced to go to another state to even have the opportunity? This needs to be the way we form our opinions and understand it will take patience in the short term to continue doing what we all love to do every spring for the long term.

There should be absolutely no compromise because of:
A) butthurt people
B) there were good hatches the past couple of years and you're seeing more turkeys

I get it that you don't believe a study that took place here in TN over a 6 year period and didn't come up with data to support Chamberlain. The study was the main reason our agency or turkey coordinator didn't recommend a change or delay last year they actually ask for the same opening date as normal. They were waiting on the results from the study before making a decision as they wanted to base a decision on turkey management based off facts and not a theory. Results come in and they didn't support reproductive benefits in the delayed areas. That is why the commission who made the decision is now talking of possibly moving it back. Again hatches are always up and down based off weather/ predators and habitat. Post up your study that is more comprehensive than what I showed and make me believe the delay will be beneficial for our turkeys since my offering is " nothing" Again I am always man enough to admit when I am wrong,. certainly wouldn't be the first time.

 

[deerfever]

I agree with you... there is no hard scientific data yet proving April 1st vs April 15 makes no difference either way.

But if the HUNTING itself is better opening mid April vs April 1, why would you not want to take advantage of that?

Did you have a worse hunting experience with the 2w delay?

I would simply like one more week in April then the time in May. I ended up hunting with my son and a juvenile that had never been last season . As the season went on and I started hunting myself it seemed the gobblers got back together( I know not all of them) Had 5 together feed by me in a field that I wouldn't shoot at any as I like to watch them come in gobbling/strutting etc... I know your experience was much different and maybe the later part will be different for me this season. Again I am not going to have a nervous breakdown if they keep it the same but I would love to see it just move back a week and end when it used to. I got to call in birds for others and enjoyed it as always. As long as we keep having hatches the way we have the last few years , TN will be fine either way they open it.

 

[megalomaniac]

I would simply like one more week in April then the time in May. I ended up hunting with my son and a juvenile that had never been last season . As the season went on and I started hunting myself it seemed the gobblers got back together( I know not all of them) Had 5 together feed by me in a field that I wouldn't shoot at any as I like to watch them come in gobbling/strutting etc... I know your experience was much different and maybe the later part will be different for me this season. Again I am not going to have a nervous breakdown if they keep it the same but I would love to see it just move back a week and end when it used to. I got to call in birds for others and enjoyed it as always. As long as we keep having hatches the way we have the last few years , TN will be fine either way they open it.

I'm different than most TN residents, as I usually only get to hunt 1 week since my drive is 6.5h.

BUT... let's say you only got to hunt 1 week of the season, and birds were completely unhunted and no birds killed, which week would you pick?

For me, mid April was always the best week of for both gobbling as well as birds that were actually callable.... in other words-FUN! Opening week when I was a newbie was more about trying to sneak into range of the subflock of 2 or 3 toms with 10 or 12 hens.

 

[Gobble4me757]

Absolutely stupid. No studies have shown later starts produce more turkeys in fact the prelim results have shown it has no effect

 

[Popcorn]

Hens who have not mated will usually not initiate a nest. They produce eggs, but just drop them randomly on the landscape

I must say I have never seen this behavior. I have picked up random eggs both wild and domestic that prove to have been fertile

They were waiting on the results from the study before making a decision as they wanted to base a decision on turkey management based off facts and not a theory. Results come in and they didn't support reproductive benefits in the delayed areas. That is why the commission who made the decision is now talking of possibly moving it back

I strongly feel that the study is too isolating and has not been ongoing long enough to measure results. if given time results will be positive statewide.

 

[prstide]

I get it that you don't believe a study that took place here in TN over a 6 year period and didn't come up with data to support Chamberlain. The study was the main reason our agency or turkey coordinator didn't recommend a change or delay last year they actually ask for the same opening date as normal. They were waiting on the results from the study before making a decision as they wanted to base a decision on turkey management based off facts and not a theory. Results come in and they didn't support reproductive benefits in the delayed areas. That is why the commission who made the decision is now talking of possibly moving it back. Again hatches are always up and down based off weather/ predators and habitat. Post up your study that is more comprehensive than what I showed and make me believe the delay will be beneficial for our turkeys since my offering is " nothing" Again I am always man enough to admit when I am wrong,. certainly wouldn't be the first time.

Popcorn has already responded with how I would have responded to the study you're forming your opinions from. It was underfunded and too isolated(mainly dealt with southern middle counties for the first 3 years if I'm not mistaken). I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm not saying I'm right by any means. What I am saying is that changes have been made, based off of hunter input to the commissioners and possibly from feedback received during the public comment period, and we need to stick with it for no less than 5 years, re-evaluate, then if changes need to be made do so at that time in small increments. We have to have some type of constant to know if the changes made are or are not having an effect. If you go changing it every year you'll be chasing your tail forever. I personally don't care what happens in other states with other studies and what they say—each circumstance is different and until something concrete can be proven in THIS state as to the cause of decline, we need to be patient and willing to forfeit opportunities in the short term in the best interest of the resource.

 

[Popcorn]

Does anyone have confirmed nesting windows broken down by county? I would like to see comparisons for west TN at MS line vs LBL, middle TN at AL line vs Macon county and East TN at GA line vs Claiborne county.

 

[Popcorn]

I strongly believe there is no single solution but rather multiple approaches based on each region and the many variables that come along. There will always be the right thing to do that some of us aren't gonna like but sound practices must come first.

 

[prstide]

I strongly believe there is no single solution but rather multiple approaches based on each region and the many variables that come along. There will always be the right thing to do that some of us aren't gonna like but sound practices must come first.

I too believe the true solution is definitely a multi-pronged approach. Like you say we have to start somewhere and having such liberal limits and an early start date was getting our turkey population hammered year in and year out for over a decade. That coupled with poor nesting success/poult survival just compounded things. I won't even comment on the new "tools and methods" we've seen come about. Regardless, change will never suit everyone but I was sure in favor of some action after years of frustration due to NO action.

 

[TheLBLman]

I need to clarify a bit about my 1st post on this thread.

And it's not "just" about more successful breeding.

The April 15th start date SAVES a ton of longbeards from being slaughtered by non-resident hunters who were abusing TN's early start and (until recently) 4-bird limit.

Most of the non-resident hunters coming for TN's early slaughter were avid, highly accomplished turkey hunters; many of the kind who could easily take 4 long-beards in a single week of hunting.

Delaying the season 2 weeks has greatly reduced this slaughter because this particular sub-set of hunters is going to be turkey hunting somewhere the 1st 2 weeks of April, just now not in TN.

The big problem WAS that most states were opening later than TN, so TN was a huge draw to non-resident hunters. . . . . . . .

IMO, the TN turkey season now opening mid-April is a much "fairer" date for resident TN turkey hunters. Non-residents are still welcome.

Just to be clear, non-resident hunters remain welcome in TN, as it would be hypocritical for me to suggest they have less right to be here than I have to be a non-resident hunter (or fisherman) in the many non-resident places I have hunted & fished.

My issue was meant to be more about the harm being caused to resident hunters and the turkey population by the TN season opening so much earlier than many other states. I can't blame non-resident hunters for coming to TN when our season may open a week or two (or a month) before theirs opens. I just think TWRA should have have been opening our season later, and the many reasons have been posted throughout this thread.

I'm readdressing this because of what Tellico4x4 posted in a different forum, re-posted below, and I don't want him or anyone else to misunderstand my issue, or lack thereof, with non-resident hunters.

And, I agreed with most everything Tellico4x4 has posted, both here and elsewhere.

Working on plans for our 2025 WY elk hunt the past few days made realize just how much things have changed, not only in cost, but attitudes towards NR hunters.
I really do not understand the animosity towards NR's as they are a huge minority of hunters in any state and pay dearly for the privilege. Not only in license fees, but fuel, lodging, meals, etc... Without them the DNR's would not have nearly the revenue to manage game & fish with.

It's not just the western states either.

Very true.

All you have to do is peruse our turkey forum and you'll see plenty of NR bashing there too. I wonder how many of the haters have hunted or fished in other states? I know the boat ramps at Wheeler, Wilson and Pickwick often have more TN trucks than AL ones parked there.

I've certainly done plenty of fishing & hunting in other states and one other country,
so it would be hypocritical of me to insinuate non-residents have no right to come to Tennessee.

In 2025 there will be 5 or 6 guys on our WY elk hunt and JUST license fees will exceed 10-12K$. Two of the guys will be my grown grandsons and it's been a dream for a long time that we do that trip together.

Sounds like a trip that will be treasured by many x many lifetimes.
Those licensing costs seem ridiculously expensive, and "unreasonable".

IMO, western states' DNRs are exploiting non-resident hunters.
Compared to most western states' non-resident licensing fees, TN seems cheap?

To me, it seemed more a case of TWRA exploiting TN resident hunters in trying to attract more non-resident hunters with an early turkey season opening date. My problem has been more with TWRA than with the non-resident hunters. I have similar "issue" with TWRA creating the August trophy buck "velvet" deer hunt, for what seemed to be a primary purpose of attracting non-resident deer hunters.

While I do think non-residents should pay a higher licensing cost than residents, it should be "reasonable". Opinions will vary greatly on "reasonable". I also think young adults Age 21 & younger (both resident & non-resident) should be paying less than older adults.

I'm a bit torn as to what non-resident TN landowners should pay, but perhaps it should be no more than TN resident hunters pay, assuming those non-resident hunters hunt exclusively on the land they own. If they hunt anywhere else, they should pay the non-resident rate.

 

[redblood]

Im fine if it helps the population, but it really just cut 2 weeks off the season, cause i ain't turkey hunting on memorial day!

 

[th88]

Lookie what I stumbled upon. A recently published thesis (Dec. 2023) from the TN study. Link below:

https://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=10876&&context=utk_gradthes&sei-redir=1&referer=https%253A%252F%252Fscholar.google.com%252Fscholar%25

Abstract:

Many states throughout the Southeast have documented declines in wild turkey (Meleagris gallopavo) harvest and estimates of recruitment in poult-per-hen ratios. Wild turkey populations are driven by seasonal productivity, so the decline in these parameters may indicate a decline in the overall population. One hypothesis as to why we are seeing a reduction in productivity and a potential population decline is that the spring hunting season is disrupting the reproductive cycleby harvesting too many males before they have had the opportunity to breed, or by harvesting dominant males and disrupting the social hierarchy of the flock. Our objectives for this study were to 1) document the effects of a two-week delay in the opening of the hunting season on wild turkey seasonal productivity; and 2) determine if hunter's behavior, success, or satisfaction changed in response to the delayed hunting season. We radio tagged 432 individual hens from 2017 to 2022 (623 hen-years) in a Before-After-Control-Impact study design to assess nesting activity and we documented 446 initial nests. Based on AIC model selection and linear mixed effect models, we documented no effect of the season start date on nest incubation initiation(nesting rate, P = 0.83), portion of eggs to hatch from a nest (P = 0.33), or nest success (β [beta] = 0.225, SEβ [beta] = 0.256). Furthermore, we documented no effect on poult survival during the first 28 days of life (Δ[delta]AICc = 10.16), or hen survival during the nesting season (Δ[delta]AICc = 6.945). Additionally, we mailed surveys to the same 2,000 turkey hunters in south-middleTennessee, USA each year from 2017–2022. Hunters in delayed counties heard 33.6% fewergobbles per trip (P = 0.03) after the season delay, but hunter satisfaction remained the same before and after the season delay (P = 0.18). We documented no biological reason to support a later hunting season in Tennessee. State agencies should collect vital rate data and analyze the effects of various season start dates before changing the turkey hunting season framework.

 

[Popcorn]

While I do think non-residents should pay a higher licensing cost than residents, it should be "reasonable". Opinions will vary greatly on "reasonable". I also think young adults Age 21 & younger (both resident & non-resident) should be paying less than older adults

I have always believed it should be reciprocal.
Non-res should pay exactly what Tennesseans pay as non-res in their home state. Cumulative.
Total cost for equivalent licensing