Zones for turkeys

[Setterman]

Having spent a day or two in Greene county Bama this year, maybe I'm the reason I've never heard so many birds down there as I did in march and killed 4 in 5 days as well.

I really can't speak to the rest of tn but the part of the world I hunt the population seems fine. Although right now and I mean right now it's dead quiet. Maybe the blight hit here since daylight

 

[woodsman87]

Apologize for lenght, but wild turkeys is my passion.

Isolated places across the Southeastern U.S. have lower numbers than a decade ago, and my main hunting area is one of them.

I have not seen a poult within a 10 mile radius of my home farm since 2007 And beyond this area I haven't seen poults in a few years. I have seen a few hen nest, several single hens here and there in the fields during mid-spring to summer. Late summer and early fall all I see is small groups of 5 or 6 hens with no poults. Used to be 3-5 brood hens with 7 or so poults each.

I agree with a few points made by Setterman, Southern Sportsman, and AlabamaSwamper. Like AlabamaSwamper says, I do not think the harvest of male turkeys has a huge detrimental impact of the population, if it is controlled and biologically sound. I think that most hens are bred earlier than what alot of people think. And you have to realize, just because a gobbler has hens and they are breeding, doesn't mean that she hasn't been bred yet. But there are still several hens that egg polyps haven't developed yet. Several years ago I looked at a bearded hen a guy killed. It was killed the opening day. She had her egg polyps, but they were very small and no where near time to lay. I don't really know how long it takes for them to develop, drop down, and be ready to be laid. I do know that a hen can be bred and hold sperm for 3 weeks. So that hen could have been bred, and had sperm in there and fertilized the eggs as they developed.

Also as Setterman and Southern Sportsman said, gobblers are getting killed that before the blind/decoy craze were not getting killed. The limit of 4 gobblers may have been suffice back before the decoy blind days, because there were fewer turkey hunters, and fewer turkeys getting killed. So IMO it looks like the best thing to do as of now is to delay opening season about 2 weeks, and go from 4 gobblers to 3 gobblers.

I also have no issue with the fall seasons, but I do wish they would outlaw hen killing and make your bag limit be statewide, season long, with gobblers only during the combined fall and spring season. Even though not many hens get killed in the fall, and some people say "she probably would have died anyways" well she may not have died either. I think that it is crucial to leave the hens alone, they already have a greater mortality rate than of gobblers because predators catch them on the nest and bush-hoggers and hay cutters kill plenty.

Another theory. After an initial population boom, there is a steady decline to the habitats carrying capacity. Varmints and predators "learn" that there is a new food on the menu. Racoons and the like actually learn that there are turkey eggs available to eat, so they actively search for them. We also didn't have the Armidillos and feral hogs until about 2005-2007 years, which was when I noticed the numbers falling. I am not blaming it soley on them, but it could be an issue. I know that armidillos are bad on the nest for fact, and them things are everywhere around here. Most people try to dodge little varmints in their cars, I try to hit all armidillos and possums I see.

I talked to a UT extension office biologist at one of the checking stations a few weeks ago, when they were studying the turkeys. He said now they are trying to find a problem, and they know of no for sure problem. He also said the next step of the process was to radio collar hens and track them to observe their nesting success/failure rate. He said that the taking of gobblers does not have a major impact on the population (as long as it is controlled like it is.) He also does not agree with the fall hen season. So, IMO, if a wild turkey biologist says these things, I think we ought to follow his recommendations.

I am glad that the TWRA is addressing the problem in my home area. But we hunters/sportsman/conservationist are the future of our own sport. We need to do our part in habitat management. That is the best thing we can do for turkeys. We need to build better nesting and brood rearing habitat. Control predators. Try not to shoot hens (may not help much but it dang hurts them.)

 

[Boll Weevil]

Woodsman...you just saved me a whole lot of typing. I agree with nearly everything you wrote right down to the armadillo killin' and importance of good nesting habitat.

My area was absolutely blessed with solid hatches the last 2 years but I also can't help but wonder if it was encouraged by some of the habitat improvement work I've done. What you write about habitat management is positively spot-on. Some years ago I had to ask myself, "So what am I doing about the issue on my farm?" When I planned to help the flock however I could, the investment was returned in spades.

What I can't speak to is those areas that at one time had plenty but are now completely devoid of birds. Some dramatic change must have occurred. It reminds me of the quail decline. As a kid it was nothing to see several coveys here and there and then...they were gone. Listening to old timers talk back then it could have been because of everything from hawks to fire ants to pasture being converted to fescue. Throw in "clean" farming practices, increase in nest predators, etc and whatever the cause(s), it was significant enough basically eradicate the little birds. Something like that must have happened in some areas...the birds just aren't there anymore.

Changing the limit may not matter if there aren't any birds to begin with. In some cases, it almost sounds like a trap-n-transfer restoration effort.

 

[woodsman87]

Woodsman...you just saved me a whole lot of typing. I agree with nearly everything you wrote right down to the armadillo killin' and importance of good nesting habitat.

My area was absolutely blessed with solid hatches the last 2 years but I also can't help but wonder if it was encouraged by some of the habitat improvement work I've done. What you write about habitat management is positively spot-on. Some years ago I had to ask myself, "So what am I doing about the issue on my farm?" When I planned to help the flock however I could, the investment was returned in spades.

We do all we can with what little private land we have control over, just trying, hoping, one or two hens will raise a successful brood orf 4 or so poults. I do everything I can to help them. But I can't do it all by myself, I don't have enough land to control, time, money, or equipment.

Basically I just have some good food plots with clover. I like to do discing in certain places during mid spring to turn up the seed bank and bring up grubs for hens to eat. This is beside tall wild grasses or some other thicker vegatation for a nesting area.

I have said this before about turkey management. We need to do all we can to help out. I am speaking to all of you. If you truly love this sport of turkey hunting, you need to put a little bit of help in if you can. Yes your job, family, and God comes first, but like myself, with what extra I can do I am always trying to provide for my local wildlife, which is centered around wild turkeys. These things aren't like deer. Everything in the woods is trying to eat them from the time they are laid as an egg until adulthood. Weather is a major factor, which is something we obviously cannot control.

I am asking for you to control what you can control. Try not to shoot hens, create nesting and brood rearing habitat, make food plots, do not bush hog until August/September. Just do what you can do. If you cherish it, it will feel good to put a little bit back. Join the NWTF and your local chapter. I am not saying to be sponsor, but that little bit of money goes to (supposed to) habitat management and improvement on public lands. So see, even if your a sole public land hunter you can still do something to help conserve wild turkeys.

 

[woodsman87]

Boll Weevil,I will have part of my die inside if the same thing happens to wild turkeys as it did bobwhite quail. I would probably quit hunting altogether.

BTW, if you manage your habitat for wild turkeys, it will help your bob white quail as well as your deer, for all of you deer hunters out there.

 

[woodsman87]

And I might get bashed for this, and I really do not care, bash away. The attitude of shooting a hen in the fall because it is legal has got to stop. Just because it is legal doesn't mean it is right. Just because you can do it doesn't make it right. We need to quit acting like just because we can do it we have to do it.
Turkey populations do not need to be held in "check" as of now anyways. What dang harm do they do? They may eat a little of a farmers planted corn, but don't they have insurance for stuff like that? They eat acorns. So what. Dang deer eats 100x the acorns and other mast crops and food plots as turkeys.

 

[Setterman]

And I might get bashed for this, and I really do not care, bash away. The attitude of shooting a hen in the fall because it is legal has got to stop. Just because it is legal doesn't mean it is right. Just because you can do it doesn't make it right. We need to quit acting like just because we can do it we have to do it.
Turkey populations do not need to be held in "check" as of now anyways. What dang harm do they do? They may eat a little of a farmers planted corn, but don't they have insurance for stuff like that? They eat acorns. So what. Dang deer eats 100x the acorns and other mast crops and food plots as turkeys.

I absolutely agree with you. There's no reason to ever shoot a hen, period. It really bothers me when I see bearded hens getting killed as "trophies" or because their legal.

IMO hens should be illegal to kill at all times

 

[woodsman87]

And I might get bashed for this, and I really do not care, bash away. The attitude of shooting a hen in the fall because it is legal has got to stop. Just because it is legal doesn't mean it is right. Just because you can do it doesn't make it right. We need to quit acting like just because we can do it we have to do it.
Turkey populations do not need to be held in "check" as of now anyways. What dang harm do they do? They may eat a little of a farmers planted corn, but don't they have insurance for stuff like that? They eat acorns. So what. Dang deer eats 100x the acorns and other mast crops and food plots as turkeys.

I absolutely agree with you. There's no reason to ever shoot a hen, period. It really bothers me when I see bearded hens getting killed as "trophies" or because their legal.

IMO hens should be illegal to kill at all times

[/quote

I agree. Bearded hens aren't that uncommon anyways. I see 2-3 every spring.

 

[AT Hiker]

Having spent a day or two in Greene county Bama this year, maybe I'm the reason I've never heard so many birds down there as I did in march and killed 4 in 5 days as well.

I really can't speak to the rest of tn but the part of the world I hunt the population seems fine. Although right now and I mean right now it's dead quiet. Maybe the blight hit here since daylight

Did you hunt the WMA down there or some private land? I ask because we were down there in March as well but the birds were not very vocal except for a few days, we hunted the WMA.

 

[FARMTOFIELD]

We do all we can in terms of management around my area. Food plots, nesting and such. We killed around 30 coons, 40 armadillos, 2 coyotes and a bobcat along with a few possums. I've seen an increase in the population over the last 3 years but were still not at huntable populations.

 

[woodsman87]

We do all we can in terms of management around my area. Food plots, nesting and such. We killed around 30 coons, 40 armadillos, 2 coyotes and a bobcat along with a few possums. I've seen an increase in the population over the last 3 years but were still not at huntable populations.

Maybe it will get better. I am thankful I have some decent spots in other parts of TN and AL. But I say decent, they are not great like they used to be.
Been seeing lots of hens this spring on my home farm, hopefully they will raise a success brood. All I can do is hope that it happens.

 

[4onaside]

Ah, "the good ole days!" As far as I'm concerned the good ole days on my place is now. Sure there is not a gobbler behind every tree, and killing them every time out doesn't happen, even for an old blind/deke guy like me. What fun would it be if that were the case? I enjoy using different sets, to see the bird's reactions. Some birds come in, some are scared by the fakes. That's interesting to me. But a hen is a hen whatever time of the year, or whether or not she has a scraggly "trophy" beard. We do not/have never killed hens. Even in the fall, we shoot gobblers or none at all. I have never understood shooting the egg layers anytime, anywhere.

 

[megalomaniac]

Seems the weather is STILL being used for declining turkey harvest numbers (although I still don't see TWRA willingly admitting that the population is also in decline).

I hope zones with declining harvest numbers open the season 2 weeks later and outlaw the harvest of jakes. It would be nice to allow all hens old enough to breed to actually set a clutch of fertilized eggs for a change.

The counties I own land in are actually down 30-40% harvest this year compared to last year. This year will be the tipping point. I've never seen so few hens since 1992. We may very well have gone past the point of no return as far as sustainable hunting populations. I actually still have a few birds, but only due to personal aggressive management. Unfortunately, since the neighboring properties have long since had all their birds shot out, I've never seen and caught so many poachers in my life

Just a couple more years with the current regs and turkeys will be as rare as they were back in the 80's.

I'm still not convinced that is exactly what TWRA is wanting due to pressure from farmers and the auto insurance industry

This is so laughably hypocritical I can't believe you posted it.

To whine about hens getting killed when you and a partner laid waste to a bunch of hens during the spring season a few years ago. I'm against hen killing, but I can at least say I've never killed one and am competent enough to not slaughter them while trying to kill a Longbeard. You talking about hen killing is laughable.

Just wow...

I had no idea that the last time we had an internet disagreement that you still harbored ill feelings. I would like to apologize truly and sincerely for my behavior in that thread. I realize now that most of my comments were hurtful and belittling to you. I suspected that I was out of line in the way I treated you back then, but I now feel convicted to honestly and humbly apologize and ask for your forgiveness.
http://www.tndeer.com/tndeertalk/ubbthr ... =0&fpart=1

As far as my response to Steven's original post...

I was also out of line in insinuating that TWRA refuses to admit that turkey populations are declining. They admitted as much last fall; but because of my passion for turkeys (no excuse, I know) I seem to get overly frustrated by watching the population slowly decline year after year.

Most of my comments on tndeer are made to stimulate discussion. Admittingly, sometimes I play Devil's Advocate in those discussions. Because of that, many will disagree with me, even though they may not realize that we, in reality, have the same beliefs.

What I was hoping this particular topic would evolve into was an honest account of nest initiation dates throughout the state, and whether a staggered start to the season would allow more hens to actually set a clutch of fertilized eggs, which in turn would improve our poult recruitment.

As far as hen killing, although I am opposed to it, it probably is not the cause of our population decline (except in local populations which have extremely few hens... in those areas it can be absolutely devastating). I could also care less what the limit on spring gobblers are (as long as there are enough remaining gobblers to fertilize all mature hens... some hens don't initiate nests till the start of the 3rd week of April on my farms). Heck, I think a system could actually work where the spring gobbler limit is removed altogether (kill 100 if you like) as long as none are removed prior to every hen being bred, and the killing of jakes are outlawed (so those jakes survive to fertilize the hens the following year). Sure, we'll end up only killing 2 year old birds in the future (much like we did with only killing 1.5 yr old bucks back in the 80's), but the overall population could rebound.

And to make matters worse... we're coming up on the 10th consecutive year of miserable hatches (based on August brood surveys)... is that because predators are killing the nesting hens/ poults? or bad weather? or is it because hens are laying nests of infertile eggs? Whatever the cause of the poor recruitment, THAT is the main reason why are populations are falling.

It IS hard for me... remembering the glory days back in the mid to late 90's... working 29 different longbeards in a single day... you guys remember... back when turkeys were only in half the state and our kill was 36,000.... remember, back then.... TWRA felt after the state was completely stocked we would plateau out at a harvest of 60,000 toms each spring. What I would give to go back to those days.

On the 1000 acre farm just 20 years ago I worked 29 different gobblers in one day, this year only had one gobbler and 2 hens. After seeing how few birds were alive this year, I just had no desire to shoot the fellow... heck... I only even carried a gun on less than 25% of the hunts I went on this year. I still had a blast working and outsmarting birds, but just didn't feel I could justify killing one. I suppose that's because I have three young children who all enjoy hunting and I hope they get to have the experience with turkeys I had back in the 90's some day.

Woodsman87... you, sir, are a gentleman... someday I would like to meet you and buy you a cup of coffee

 

[megalomaniac]

Seems the weather is STILL being used for declining turkey harvest numbers (although I still don't see TWRA willingly admitting that the population is also in decline).

I hope zones with declining harvest numbers open the season 2 weeks later and outlaw the harvest of jakes. It would be nice to allow all hens old enough to breed to actually set a clutch of fertilized eggs for a change.

The counties I own land in are actually down 30-40% harvest this year compared to last year. This year will be the tipping point. I've never seen so few hens since 1992. We may very well have gone past the point of no return as far as sustainable hunting populations. I actually still have a few birds, but only due to personal aggressive management. Unfortunately, since the neighboring properties have long since had all their birds shot out, I've never seen and caught so many poachers in my life

Just a couple more years with the current regs and turkeys will be as rare as they were back in the 80's.

I'm still not convinced that is exactly what TWRA is wanting due to pressure from farmers and the auto insurance industry

oh my

I completely missed the portion about the auto insurance companies, that's hilarious.

I dunno... maybe not the auto insurance companies....
http://www.state.tn.us/twra/turkeymain.html
A direct quote from TWRA, " Large numbers of turkeys in certain parts of the state have brought about conflicts and in some instances economic losses. The strategies in TWRA's current management plan seek to resolve these issues... "

I suppose those economic losses could be from loss of sales of Butterballs in the grocery stores as well.

But the bottom line is that TWRA fully subscribes to something called 'social carrying capacity', not 'carrying capacity'.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't want my wife to hit a turkey at 70mph on the interstate (and I wouldn't even wish it on you, either) and I understand TWRA's delimma with trying to balance the number of birds with number of farmer complaints and turkey-vehicle accident reports... but my comments were not intended to be a joke. It is a very real factor in their decision to allow populations to decline in certain areas.

I'd be more than happy to discuss further in a civil manner if you desire, but I'm not able to have as much free time to burn on the internet over the past couple years since my kids are hitting the labor intensive years with after school/ night sports and activites.

 

[AlabamaSwamper]

Hens being killed absolutely has nothing to do with our decline. I guess since we've never shot a hen might lead me to that line of thought.

 

[woodsman87]

Hens being killed absolutely has nothing to do with our decline. I guess since we've never shot a hen might lead me to that line of thought.

Are you saying hens being killed by hunters in the fall? Or saying hens being killed by other factors such as predators while nesting?

I think you are talking about hen killing by hunters in the fall. I agree but disagree in a way. They do not kill many, but what the do kill does indeed effect the population. Each hen killed could remove a future 2-7 poults per hen. 2 poults per hen being on the low side, and 7 poults per hen being on the hight side.

I realize Maury county and up in there has absolute gobs of turkeys right now, but they need to quit shooting hens in fall. Turkeys are not bound by dang county lines. Some of the young hens could be bred, and migrate south to Lawrence and Giles counties to hopefully bounce the population back up.

Not many hens are killed. But it has an impact on population. Just becuase she might have died in the winter, doesn't mean she for sure dies.

I grow tired of trying to explain shooting hens. They should be as protected as Bald Eagles.

 

[oldmanelrod]

Hens being killed absolutely has nothing to do with our decline. I guess since we've never shot a hen might lead me to that line of thought.

AlabamaSwamper, I agree with and enjoy most of your post...but, how can you be sure that "Hens being killed absolutely has nothing to do with our decline"? I am just wondering what proof there is to support your statement?

 

[Bone Collector]

I'm still not convinced that is exactly what TWRA is wanting due to pressure from farmers and the auto insurance industry

I just started reading this thread (yes I know it has been up for days) but I think this is a reach at best. If this were the case, they (TWRA) would have already taken all the limits off deer in Mid TN. Deer would be much more destructive to a farm than a turkey IMO and as far as cars are concerned, there is no contest.

I understand what you are saying above that comment and feel that it would be better, to manage all "big game" by zones, based on population. This way those areas that have seen massive population declines, can rebuild, while allowing areas like where I hunt (Wilson/Rutherford) and the surrounding counties, to harvest birds. I counted 50+ on my way to work this morning. The big flock was only on 1/2 display so there were only 10-12 strutters, with about 20-25 hens......

 

[woodsman87]

If you go to the tn.gov website and look at their turkey page, they say in it that some areas have had a huge population growth and have had depradation problems and economic loss. It is extremely hard for me to see that, because I have been living and hunting in places where birds are fairly hard to come by pretty much my entire life.

I could not imagine seeing 50 turkeys in one field during the breeding season like this, much less 10 longbeards together. I rarely even see 4 or 5 gobblers together during the fall.

It is a different world up in the mid-mid-state and the north-mid state. Giles, Lawrence, and Wayne aint like it was back in the late 90s early 2000s.

 

[woodsman87]

Also according to the harvest reports, statewide has been going downhill by ~about~ a thousand birds per year since 2009. Not all counties have, such as Maury, Marshall, Robertson, and Wilson Counties look to have had an substantial increase.