Zones for turkeys

[deerchaser007]

Zones really concern me. Cause you know they will do a similar zone like the deer units. Like woodsman87 was saying,alot has changed since the 90's and early 2000's,and it would be to easy to zone all the southern middle tn counties together, when there is a sharp difference in those counties, even sharp differences from one end of a county to another.
I think there is better options other than zones. A lot of good options have been talked about in this thread, the only other one that I would support would be no hunting after 1 pm. Missouri claims this is a vital part of their manangement and how they maintain a strong population. Giving the turkey all the afternoon to do their business, and reduces pressure which keeps turkey vocal during season. Maybe they are onto something there!BUT, they also only have a 2 bird limit and there season is much shorter, april 21 thru may 11! I think a lot can be learned from Missouri's turkey management strategies.
As far as the decoy,baiting,super choke, etc talk, I think the biggest other factor concerning declining turkey population is not none of that, but hunters not educated about turkey and turkey behavior. I would GUESS there is more turkey shot during deer season than in spring turkey season. Frustrated deer hunters shooting them cause they see them in their huge winter flocks and figure, well there was 30 there, no big deal. Not understanding at all that those 30 birds are a large part of the population for up to 2 square miles at the least.Its just wrong, its severely hurting the population and is poaching!!SO, if you know hunters doing it, educate them, then turn them in.
Woodsman87, Rutherford county tn is covered up in turkey.WHY, I don't know. I see nothing there that provides great nesting habitat. NOTHING!! But, I must say, I have even noticed the past 2 years their population is declining.I drive there almost daily from cannon county, and some years ago it would be nothing to see flocks of 100 plus birds around kitrell up thru into the boro. NOT as much the past 2 years. Even the flock in the city limits on Rutherford blvd as declined over the years, but its still hefty. We never see nothing like that in cannon county, but since we are located beside Rutherford and Wilson counties, guaranteed we would be zoned with them. That's my concern with zones.
Good thread here though, been good info posted

 

[woodsman87]

You make some good points deerchaser007. But I believe Missouri and those states end shooting time at 1 is because there is less woods, and easier for hunters to sit beside so called roost trees and shoot them coming to roost. I don't know that for fact, I have just observed that could be the case.

Also I believe hunters should be educated more about the wild turkey, their population dynamics, and so forth. There are definately angry deer hunters that probably shoot them because "they eat all the acorns and food plot seed."

Another thing that I believe may have a small effect is allowing archery deer hunters to shoot them during the fall. I bet alot get shot, and go untagged, and probaby even more wounded and run off somewhere. I respect anyone who tries to shoot a turkey with a bow with no blind in the spring or fall, but you got to be carefel. They are easy to wound and run/fly off and die.

 

[megalomaniac]

I'm still not convinced that is exactly what TWRA is wanting due to pressure from farmers and the auto insurance industry

I just started reading this thread (yes I know it has been up for days) but I think this is a reach at best. If this were the case, they (TWRA) would have already taken all the limits off deer in Mid TN. Deer would be much more destructive to a farm than a turkey IMO and as far as cars are concerned, there is no contest.

Actually TWRA has done just that... basically removed all limits off the sex of deer which are responsible for population growth.. the does. Unit L is what TWRA calls it. And TWRA has admitted one of the main reasons was specifically to control and reduce herd numbers. Both for biological health of the deer as well as the fact they had exceeded our social carrying capacity.

But again, you can't compare deer population models to turkey population models. It is impossible for turkeys to exceed their 'biological carrying capacity'... in other words, biologically, there is no such thing as an overpopulation of turkeys.

 

[megalomaniac]

Woodsman87, Rutherford county tn is covered up in turkey.WHY, I don't know. I see nothing there that provides great nesting habitat. NOTHING!! But, I must say, I have even noticed the past 2 years their population is declining.

Funny you noticed that... Rutherford county kill is down about 30% the same days of the season last year compared to this year. And despite 150 fewer birds being killed, jake harvest this year has spiked back up. VERY significant decline, and IMO very indicative of a problem. But perhaps an annual kill of 450 birds instead of 900 in the past will be the 'new normal'... the 'social carrying capacity' that the population cannot rebound from.

 

[deerchaser007]

You make some good points deerchaser007. But I believe Missouri and those states end shooting time at 1 is because there is less woods, and easier for hunters to sit beside so called roost trees and shoot them coming to roost. I don't know that for fact, I have just observed that could be the case.

Also I believe hunters should be educated more about the wild turkey, their population dynamics, and so forth. There are definately angry deer hunters that probably shoot them because "they eat all the acorns and food plot seed."

Another thing that I believe may have a small effect is allowing archery deer hunters to shoot them during the fall. I bet alot get shot, and go untagged, and probaby even more wounded and run off somewhere. I respect anyone who tries to shoot a turkey with a bow with no blind in the spring or fall, but you got to be carefel. They are easy to wound and run/fly off and die.

I wish I could find the whole article that I read all that from, that's been 15 years ago I guess, and think it was a NWTF article. It was a article from biologist from the conservation dept from the state. Anyway, it specifically states that in research studies it showed that since most hens tend to go to nest after 11: 00 AM, the increased pressure after those hours could cause the hens to be bumped off nest never to return, causing total loss of the hatch and causing significant loss in poult production.
SO, lets consider this, most northern states have a shutoff of noon or 1 pm, including, Missouri,Ill,PA,NY,OH,etc. Over the past 10 years, the southeast has been seeing turkey declines enough that many states and the NWTF is investigating, but the northern states are still strong and gaining in population. All southern states have all day hunting. SO, I think its something that should be strongly considered to try. Maybe those studies were correct, but in TN studies don't sell license!!BUT, in 5 years when our turkey population has about vanished, that will not sell license either!!
Anyway, pressure is a key part of their management. I'm sure that roost shooting is part of the shutoff at 1 scenario. It was mentioned in that article that the reason for only allowing 1 tom the first week of the season is to reduce pressure and reduce risk of killing to many males before the hens were able to breed.And the 2 bird limit is to allow for mature toms to survive and breed since studies show that jakes are not adequate breeders. Again, they must be doing something right with their way of thinking, they annually harvest over 50k birds every spring.And have done that for many,many years now! AND, they have fall either sex hunting, and its not hurting them at all!!!

 

[deerchaser007]

Woodsman87, Rutherford county tn is covered up in turkey.WHY, I don't know. I see nothing there that provides great nesting habitat. NOTHING!! But, I must say, I have even noticed the past 2 years their population is declining.

Funny you noticed that... Rutherford county kill is down about 30% the same days of the season last year compared to this year. And despite 150 fewer birds being killed, jake harvest this year has spiked back up. VERY significant decline, and IMO very indicative of a problem. But perhaps an annual kill of 450 birds instead of 900 in the past will be the 'new normal'... the 'social carrying capacity' that the population cannot rebound from.

YEP!!! We will see how they like social carrying capacity when TN hunters stop buying their license cause they have screwed the hunting up in this state!!
Let me tell ya,.. I took my 6 year old daughter out this morning for her first ever hunting experience.She has been so excited to get to go with daddy hunting and experience it. I left my house in southern cannon county(woodland area) at 7:15. Drove to northern cannon county(auburntown area) and did not see one single turkey in any field nowhere in that drive.AT 7:30ish IN THE MORNING!!
We sat til 10:30 and never heard a bird gobble and never seen a bird, never seen a deer, and only saw birds and tree rats and the farms horses. I did everything I could to entertain her to keep her interest, but she got bored, and guess what, SO DID I.
I remember when I was a kid what got me interested in hunting is actually being able to see the game and hunt the game. How do we carry on our hunting traditions to our kids when there is barely enough game to keep their interest? Social carrying capacity is gonna be the death of hunting! AND, will break the TWRA's budget in coming years cause there ain't no kid gonna buy a license to hunt nothing or very little!
But maybe I am a hater! BUT, I have been ticked off since they trapped birds to send to TX and instead of taking those birds from no hunting parks or in city limits were there is no hunting and the birds are overpopulated, they take from land that is huntable!! Brilliant!! If they needed birds they could have trapped enough of them on memorial blvd in Murfreesboro to fully restock half of TX!!!LOL Maybe that's why Rutherford county turkey kills down, they taking up sanctuary in the city!!

 

[PickettSFHunter]

I just noticed that during this same time frame last year in Morgan Co. TN, 155 birds had been checked, same time frame now is 100 birds. Wonder whats up there....

 

[Huntaholic]

Ive been chasing turkeys longer than some of yall have been alive. I well remember the days when there wasnt ANY turkeys within 50 miles of here. Ive seen the population explode and Ive seen it decline. Through it all, Ive yet to kill my first hen in the fall. I refuse to do it and I refuse to participate in it. I think the declines are a combination of several factors. Wet springs, disease, predators, etc.. Wet cold springs speaks for itself. Disease is one that can be devastating. What do I suspect is the number one cause? Aflotoxins from corn that people "feed" deer with! Feeders leak, corn molds, people are lazy, and when all that happens, they simply dump that mold infested corn out on the ground. Now on to predators. Coyotes are more plentiful than they have ever been, bobcats are rebounding too. Housecats are the disdain of every small wild critter. Coons, coons are the number one raider of turkey nests. Did yall know that? EVERYBODY HATES A COONHUNTER! Well you reap what you sow. If you dont want coonhunters on you, thats fine. Trap the devils during season and dispose of them. Dont take em 10 miles down the road and turn them loose on your neighbor. Im blessed with tons of places to hunt, some of them I own or lease, some I just have permission on, and some are even public land. On my places, Ive got birds. I coonhunt those places and I do my best to manage the turkey harvests.

 

[AlabamaSwamper]

Hens being killed absolutely has nothing to do with our decline. I guess since we've never shot a hen might lead me to that line of thought.

AlabamaSwamper, I agree with and enjoy most of your post...but, how can you be sure that "Hens being killed absolutely has nothing to do with our decline"? I am just wondering what proof there is to support your statement?

I only go by what I know. I know we've never killed one hen in the fall. Yet our population has decreased 60-70%. I literally had 5 gobbling birds on our place where 15-20 were common 10 years ago. I know exactly two people that fall hunt (I admit there are more) and neither hunt anywhere near our end of the county. I know guys that hunt public land or travel out of state now because where they used have a bunch of birds, there are none now.

I hunted another 1150 acre private tract. This place used to be infested with turkeys. There was a total of 6 birds on this tract gobbling this year. used to be 20, easy on this property.

Used to see 50-100 birds in winter flocks in pastures all the time. You see 12-15 now you consider that a big flock, at least around here.

No doubt it isn't everywhere but it seems everyone I talk to says the same thing.

I've said this before but this looks very similiar to what happened to a lease (and area of a county really) that I grew up hunting down in AL. We had 4000+ acres and birds everywhere. I didn't really turkey hunt then though. It took a few years but all of a sudden one spring there wasn't a gobbling bird anywhere. No birds anywhere. Couldn't even hear one on thousands of acres you could hear on other border clubs. Nothing. Not a peep, not a track, nothing. They just vanished. No good reason either. Not any major timber operations. Just gone.

They've slowly came back there I hear but nothing like it was 20 years ago.