#1 for the season, finally

[catman529]

Also, I used to always focus on the 10" circle when patterning a gun. Now, the 10" is still important, but the 10-20" is important as well for a hunting pattern. It gives you more room for error. If I remember correctly, your old gun patterned ok but not great. This should be a good step up with the longbeard shells. Everyone has missed if they've hunted enough so keep your head up.

I never gave a crap about a 10" circle. The new gun has a shorter barrel and didn't seem to pattern as well with the Double X. So I shot a Longbeard and it was good. I don't want the tightest pattern, since I tend to miss them at 20 yards...


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[REN]

I get it you don't care about counting pellets in paper but you SHOULD care about a 10" it is in fact your killing area. No you don't need 300 in there but you do need more then 100 ideally and really more then 120 imo and you need one that doesn't have a bunch of gaps in it. No you don't need tss or hevi shot and a $100 choke but as much as you miss you really do need to pattern that thing with a very uniform pattern combination and REALLY practice muscle memory on shooting.

There is no sense in spending that much on a gun and not maximizing its potential with the amount of time you hunt. I agree that everyone has missed including myself but you seem to have had a very high number and very the years which indicates to me just bad form and rushing shots. I don't mean this as a dig or anything at you so please don't take it the. Wrong way. You really need to find a good pattern and really just practice shooting in a variety of stances to gain muscle memory and remember to slow down when the time comes and focus on the shot rather then the bird (that part just comes with experience) if you don't do something it's gonna get worse cause it's going to start really getting mental which is much much harder to fix

 

[catman529]

I get it you don't care about counting pellets in paper but you SHOULD care about a 10" it is in fact your killing area. No you don't need 300 in there but you do need more then 100 ideally and really more then 120 imo and you need one that doesn't have a bunch of gaps in it. No you don't need tss or hevi shot and a $100 choke but as much as you miss you really do need to pattern that thing with a very uniform pattern combination and REALLY practice muscle memory on shooting.

There is no sense in spending that much on a gun and not maximizing its potential with the amount of time you hunt. I agree that everyone has missed including myself but you seem to have had a very high number and very the years which indicates to me just bad form and rushing shots. I don't mean this as a dig or anything at you so please don't take it the. Wrong way. You really need to find a good pattern and really just practice shooting in a variety of stances to gain muscle memory and remember to slow down when the time comes and focus on the shot rather then the bird (that part just comes with experience) if you don't do something it's gonna get worse cause it's going to start really getting mental which is much much harder to fix

you are right about shooting and muscle memory. But a 20 pellet count difference is not going to help me. When I miss it's not because of a gap in the pattern, it's because I completely miss the bird, I'm a bad shot. I got a little practice in with the new gun and scope yesterday. I really like the red dot reticle on the truglo.


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[REN]

I get it you don't care about counting pellets in paper but you SHOULD care about a 10" it is in fact your killing area. No you don't need 300 in there but you do need more then 100 ideally and really more then 120 imo and you need one that doesn't have a bunch of gaps in it. No you don't need tss or hevi shot and a $100 choke but as much as you miss you really do need to pattern that thing with a very uniform pattern combination and REALLY practice muscle memory on shooting.

There is no sense in spending that much on a gun and not maximizing its potential with the amount of time you hunt. I agree that everyone has missed including myself but you seem to have had a very high number and very the years which indicates to me just bad form and rushing shots. I don't mean this as a dig or anything at you so please don't take it the. Wrong way. You really need to find a good pattern and really just practice shooting in a variety of stances to gain muscle memory and remember to slow down when the time comes and focus on the shot rather then the bird (that part just comes with experience) if you don't do something it's gonna get worse cause it's going to start really getting mental which is much much harder to fix

you are right about shooting and muscle memory. But a 20 pellet count difference is not going to help me. When I miss it's not because of a gap in the pattern, it's because I completely miss the bird, I'm a bad shot. I got a little practice in with the new gun and scope yesterday. I really like the red dot reticle on the truglo.


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Yes right now you are a bad shot but once you start to correct that then overall pattern starts to be the end all. I assure you gaps and 20 pellets can make a big difference, I have been shooting for a very long time and just from experience it will infact make a difference one day. If you have a 5-6' gap in a pattern that could be the head area that magically gets missed. The bottom line is you put time and money into a hobby you love so why the heck not make the item you use to kill with its maximum efficiency for your hunting style? And confidence is 75% shooting, by spending time patterning your gun you really "learn" it which brings confidence. You dont just learn the pattern but you learn the feel for it and the feel of the trigger and how the forend sits in your hand etc. I like to know every inch of my guns so when pressure moments come, I can feel natural holding it in any angle.

 

[muddyboots]

Lot of truth in rens post. I actually treat my turkey guns like rifles. I want them that accurate. Do you have to be that fanatical? No. Absolutely not. But I can't remeber the last turkey I missed. It's been a very long time. As much as you love to hunt you owe it to yourself to have your gun shooting as well as possible. And it's totally doable with the gun you got from me. I've never shot anything out of it that I would call a bad pattern. Congrats on the kill. That looked like an awesome hunt.

 

[catman529]

I'm not counting pellets but I look at the pattern and if I don't see a gap as wide as the turkeys head then it looks good to me. I print out a turkey head target that is smaller than life size and it puts a bunch in the head and neck. That's all I need to know


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[Andy S.]

FWIW, with the advancement in today's guns, chokes and ammunition, the overall "pattern" is usually the least of one's concerns when it comes to missing. Most flush full choke patterns will kill 35-40 yards with the right ammunition. Waaaaay too many "turkey hunters" get hung up in counting pellets in a 10" circle, with the new "in thing" being "400 pellets in a 10" circle". This tells me one of two things; they are either very asinine braggarts, or they routinely shoot at turkeys 60+ yards. There is no other reason to chase such a useless goal.

 

[catman529]

FWIW, with the advancement in today's guns, chokes and ammunition, the overall "pattern" is usually the least of one's concerns when it comes to missing. Most flush full choke patterns will kill 35-40 yards with the right ammunition. Waaaaay too many "turkey hunters" get hung up in counting pellets in a 10" circle, with the new "in thing" being "400 pellets in a 10" circle". This tells me one of two things; they are either very asinine braggarts, or they routinely shoot at turkeys 60+ yards. There is no other reason to chase such a useless goal.

see that's kind of along the lines of my thinking, I don't need a perfect pattern when I can't even shoot it straight. I need to get better at shooting I guess. I don't have a problem killing deer with a rifle. Like I said it's something about a big tom standing 25 yards away. Like REN said I probably need to build up better muscle memory.


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[Andy S.]

Again, my two suggestions, hold a tad lower than most, keep your cheek welded 2-3 seconds post recoil.

 

[FARMTOFIELD]

I always aim for feathers, right below the waddles or right on them if possible.

 

[Andy S.]

I always aim for feathers, right below the waddles or right on them if possible.

Same here rock. You would be amazed at how many hold on the eyeball with their super-duper 5" wide pattern, and then wonder why they miss.

 

[ZachMarkus]

I always aim for feathers, right below the waddles or right on them if possible.

Same here.


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[Bgoodman30]

WTG! I am living the same lull but worse! I hate to say it but I find solace in your missing I guess miserly loves company! I'm going on 2 years and 5 misses in a row.... If a jake played the game he gone! That's the biggest jake I've ever seen! Sadly I had a better weekend this weekend because I didn't even go hunting. I seriously took a long look at my smallmouth creek and thought to myself how much happier I would be if I was fishing in it...I did think that my non gobbling turkeys maybe non existent turkeys might have gobbled Saturday but I got over it... I got a decent pattern with my red dot dialed in and I still have a new choke to try before I try to pull myself out of this mess before Kansas... Good luck on the next one [emoji1360]


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[REN]

FWIW, with the advancement in today's guns, chokes and ammunition, the overall "pattern" is usually the least of one's concerns when it comes to missing. Most flush full choke patterns will kill 35-40 yards with the right ammunition. Waaaaay too many "turkey hunters" get hung up in counting pellets in a 10" circle, with the new "in thing" being "400 pellets in a 10" circle". This tells me one of two things; they are either very asinine braggarts, or they routinely shoot at turkeys 60+ yards. There is no other reason to chase such a useless goal.

I think you are missing my point, I didnt say anything about 400 pellets in a 10" circle OR that is the end all. My point is the 10" is in fact your kill zone, yes the 20" gives you room for error but the 10" is infact generally what kills animals. "looking" at what a pattern is vs just spending 2mins actually counting to see what your gun is doing is just silly. There is a wider difference in 80pellets vs 150 pellets. Yes it only takes 1 but Id rather have 70 more going down range if possible with just some minor tweaking. It just boggles me that people can spend as much time and money in the woods hunting turkeys and not really care to pattern a shotgun properly. that 80 pellets may kill them 49 out of 50 times but why the heck not spend an extra 10mins testing stuff like on a clean vs dirty barrel etc??? In no way am I recommending Cat get a super tight choke, he can shoot a modified for all it matters just spend time shooting the gun with ammo and chokes to see what does the best for the pattern you are looking for. There are a ton of guys on here that shoot 870s that I would wager would send you a choke to try if you wanted to do some testing. Even changing between 5s and 6s to see which one does better is an easy test.

all while you are doing these you are shooting the gun you plan on using which is building confidence and allowing your brain to feel the gun out which all helps in shooting. Again maybe its just me but it really shocks me to people just dont seem to care what the gun does in general and then wonder how the miss 3 turkeys every year. Pattern is very minimal overall in the grand scheme of things as long as it is shooting POA but what does it hurt to have enough downrange to see EXACTLY what it will do when you pull the trigger???

 

[catman529]

the 10" is infact generally what kills animals. "looking" at what a pattern is vs just spending 2mins actually counting to see what your gun is doing is just silly. There is a wider difference in 80pellets vs 150 pellets.

I'm not saying anything is wrong with counting pellets, but I don't see why it is necessary. If I shoot a shell at a turkey target at X distance, and the head and neck are covered up with pellet holes, I do not need to count pellets, I know the gun is doing it's job at X distance. If the pattern is spaced out to where there's only a handful in the head and neck, then it's not tight enough and I shouldn't shoot that far.

Im telling you the problem here is my shooting ability when I am turkey hunting. Not whether I need 13 more pellets in a circle. The last bird I missed at 20 yards. I watched the video and it appears I shot right over him. I do need to aim lower on the neck.


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[Andy S.]

I think you are missing my point, I didnt say anything about 400 pellets in a 10" circle OR that is the end all.

That comment was not directed at you, but it was directed at anyone who lives and breaths that you have to study a 10" circle to routinely kill a pile of turkeys. My two oldest mentors, both pushing 70 years of age, have never shot a piece of paper in their life, yet they can kill'em with the best of them, especially for their age, reduced mobility, and and diminishing eye sight. With that said, I do agree one needs to practice, know his/her gun/setup, and most importantly confirm that POA=POI.

My point is the 10" is in fact your kill zone, yes the 20" gives you room for error but the 10" is infact generally what kills animals.

This is true ONLY IF the hunter shoots true, and POA=POI. Cat has repeatedly said that is not the case with him, so in his instance, who knows where the 10" core is centered, so the 10" pattern is really not all that important at this point as he works through his own issues. Once he gets himself to a better place and corrects the shooting mishaps, focusing on the 10" and 10-20" circles will be a better use of his time. My .02

 

[Andy S.]

The last bird I missed at 20 yards. I watched the video and it appears I shot right over him. I do need to aim lower on the neck.

Totally agree. It will help you recover a higher percentage of birds, even if you rush the shot like all of us do from time to time.

 

[PalsPal]

2. Aim a little lower than most turkey hunters, and keep your cheek welded to the stock. The majority of turkey misses come from the shooter giving up their cheek weld too early so they can hurry up and see if they killed him. This results in the majority of the pattern going right over the top of his head.

I think Andy is spot on with this statement in your case. I went through a spell, and I think this is exactly what I was doing.

 

[REN]

I think you are missing my point, I didnt say anything about 400 pellets in a 10" circle OR that is the end all.

That comment was not directed at you, but it was directed at anyone who lives and breaths that you have to study a 10" circle to routinely kill a pile of turkeys. My two oldest mentors, both pushing 70 years of age, have never shot a piece of paper in their life, yet they can kill'em with the best of them, especially for their age, reduced mobility, and and diminishing eye sight. With that said, I do agree one needs to practice, know his/her gun/setup, and most importantly confirm that POA=POI.

My point is the 10" is in fact your kill zone, yes the 20" gives you room for error but the 10" is infact generally what kills animals.

This is true ONLY IF the hunter shoots true, and POA=POI. Cat has repeatedly said that is not the case with him, so in his instance, who knows where the 10" core is centered, so the 10" pattern is really not all that important at this point as he works through his own issues. Once he gets himself to a better place and corrects the shooting mishaps, focusing on the 10" and 10-20" circles will be a better use of his time. My .02

your first statement always makes me chuckle a bit because it doesn't really tell the whole story. Those 70 year old guys have been shooting shotguns A LONG TIME and I will guarantee you they shoot more instinctive at this point which is very different then the stage most younger hunters who didnt grow up shooting a ton of shotguns do. I dont even see the dot or the bead anymore I just know how and where to aim at turkeys, ducks or geese at this point because I have been shooting shotguns often for 30 years. Yes I have missed a few in my day but a vast majority of all of those where on questionable shots that I prob should not have been shooting in the first place. Also the age ole "its worked for me for 20years" doesnt mean there not a better way. I mean a rotary phone works just fine but there is a reason people dont use them anymore. I killed a bunch of turkeys when I was younger with random shells my grandma had and a fixed choke 870. Sure it worked but there is zero chance Im going back to that gamble.

I get your 2nd point but TO ME that is finding ways around the problem vs fixing the problem but at the same time I do see your point and see the benefit.

again guys I am not pushing to focus on a 10" circle I my self CHOSE to do a more open pattern (although with TSS) my point is SHOOT and see exactly what it does. there is no harm in spending 2 mins testing and counting shots to see if one shell does better then another or if your pattern shoots left and tighter once the barrel gets dirty etc. All of it builds confidence and all of it gets you more comfortable with the gun as well as teaches muscle memory as you are shooting with correct form.

Im just going off history here because I have had these same conversations with Cat over the past 3 years. For a long time he didnt care about chokes and ammo types cause it didnt matter, then it was scopes are not needed and something that he didnt care to use as well as a gun is a gun. then after the misses continued some of those ideas began to change. I have gone over trying to form proper shooting techniques and things to focus on but It seems he has his own way he wants to do it which is totally fine. PLEASE understand I am not digging on Cat, personally I have loved watching him grow up on this site and a lot of his minimalist mentality I really admire and at the end of the day I want him to be as successful as possible. Maybe my way is silly or over the top but I have killed a crap ton of feathered birds shooting shotguns over the past 30years and I feel I have learned a thing or 2 along the way is all. Confidence is key in shooting and the more you shoot with proper technique the more and more confidence you get and the easier it is when the pressure is on. Knowing your gun in and out adds to that confidence, I am at the point in my life that if a turkey is within 40yds he is DEAD no doubt in my mind. I feel so good about that I dont have to lift my head up to see if I hit him because I KNOW I did. I am sure I will miss again at some point we all do but I have enough confidence in my shooting ability that a miss wont even phase that.

heck Im still waiting on my invite from him for a public land bird LOL.

 

[catman529]

heck Im still waiting on my invite from him for a public land bird LOL.

I have to learn how to kill them all over again now that they don't talk like they used to...then it would be worth inviting you out here. They've been tough, I'm just happy I found one bird that will play and I'm not wanting to let anyone else kill him...lol


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