That's the million dollar question and wished at least someone knew but in the meantime taking steps to somewhat stop the bleeding would at least be a step in the right direction.
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2022-24 Hunting season proposals
- Thread starter Buzzard Breath
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That is the crux of the problem. No one knows. It is happening across the southeast. There is a long term study among southeastern states that apparently isn't coming up with much in the way of answers. TWRA's strategy has been to extend the study while continuing to manage their flock with restoration management guidelines and a long season with high bag limits. They, for whatever reason, cannot grasp that we are no longer in the restoration phase where the population is growing every year enough to withstand the annual slaughter.
In Southeastern turkey biologist working groups, the point has been made that you can't continue restoration strategy when the population is declining. It has fallen on deaf ears at TWRA. Other states are taking the best available science that is out there and making changes that they feel should help their flocks. The things that are being done have extremely little chance of hurting their flocks. The only negatives are a potential decline in license dollars.
TWRA has refused to make those type of changes because claims it impacts their study data. This is a study that was supposed to be done in three years and has already been extended another two years. It is also a study that apparently is yielding no solutions to the problem. IMO, the real reason that TWRA/TFWC won't consider the changes is it could impact license sales, particularly for nonresident hunters. An early season opener with a high bag limit draws hunters from a bunch of states that get to hunt before their home state opens. Apparently, TWRA spent $10,000 in marketing last year to help draw additional hunters from out of state.
So, we get to have a turkey population that is circling the bowl for the short term gain in $$$$$$. I am beyond disgusted with the whole thing.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
Excellent Post, SCN! Spot On!
Just want to add a few thoughts . . . . . .
But some other Southeastern states are doing more to address it WHILE everyone is studying it.
IMO, the main reason TWRA came up with a "velvet" trophy buck season (last weekend of August) was to attract non-resident hunters to come purchase a non-resident big-game license. Very few resident hunters had ANY interest in deer hunting in August, and most are actually harmed by the trophy "velvet" hunt.
I had hoped this might replace some of the lost revenue that would occur when TWRA decided to open the spring turkey season a week or two later, which I believe remains the single-best regulatory thing they could do to help the turkey populations. But years later, the only turkey season change most have seen is the turkey limit being reduced from 4 to 3.
I think this is worse than anything they've done.
Many are thinking of that marketing as mainly effecting the turkey season, but it's all hunting & fishing in TN effected, negatively.
May be hard to believe from my above comments, but I've generally felt TWRA has been one of the better state wildlife agencies, particularly with fisheries management. They did a great job restoring the wild turkey, and managing that resource for many, many years. But have missed the mark more recently with the turkeys.
In all fairness, TWRA must have operating revenue, and regardless from where it comes, many people are going to be angry. I do understand that Catch 22 position they're in with operating expenses, and it would be very unpopular with the masses if they raise resident licensing costs.
I really don't have the answer on the revenue problem, just think there is a better way than advertising for more non-resident hunters, and catering deer & turkey regs more for non-residents than us resident sportsmen.
Just want to add a few thoughts . . . . . .
Yes, this is not just a State of TN problem with the declining turkey populations.
But some other Southeastern states are doing more to address it WHILE everyone is studying it.
You NAILED IT!
IMO, the main reason TWRA came up with a "velvet" trophy buck season (last weekend of August) was to attract non-resident hunters to come purchase a non-resident big-game license. Very few resident hunters had ANY interest in deer hunting in August, and most are actually harmed by the trophy "velvet" hunt.
I had hoped this might replace some of the lost revenue that would occur when TWRA decided to open the spring turkey season a week or two later, which I believe remains the single-best regulatory thing they could do to help the turkey populations. But years later, the only turkey season change most have seen is the turkey limit being reduced from 4 to 3.
I think this is worse than anything they've done.
Many are thinking of that marketing as mainly effecting the turkey season, but it's all hunting & fishing in TN effected, negatively.
May be hard to believe from my above comments, but I've generally felt TWRA has been one of the better state wildlife agencies, particularly with fisheries management. They did a great job restoring the wild turkey, and managing that resource for many, many years. But have missed the mark more recently with the turkeys.
In all fairness, TWRA must have operating revenue, and regardless from where it comes, many people are going to be angry. I do understand that Catch 22 position they're in with operating expenses, and it would be very unpopular with the masses if they raise resident licensing costs.
I really don't have the answer on the revenue problem, just think there is a better way than advertising for more non-resident hunters, and catering deer & turkey regs more for non-residents than us resident sportsmen.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
By the way, opening our spring turkey season a week later would have no significant effect on resident turkey hunting licenses sold because most residents who hunt turkey aren't going to quit because the season opens a week later. Heck, most bought the license for deer hunting, and "turkey" just came with it anyway.
Similarly, the reduction in non-resident license sales might not be as bad as feared because many non-residents who turkey hunt in TN are doing so in part because they already were buying the licenses for hunting & fishing in TN, turkey included. Many non-residents would just turkey hunt LESS in TN, but still be buying the licenses as much or more for deer & fishing.
Similarly, the reduction in non-resident license sales might not be as bad as feared because many non-residents who turkey hunt in TN are doing so in part because they already were buying the licenses for hunting & fishing in TN, turkey included. Many non-residents would just turkey hunt LESS in TN, but still be buying the licenses as much or more for deer & fishing.
I think the turkey problem is a prime example of overthinking.
Alm I know is look at your large plantations where bobwhite management is #1. There's a 22-250 in every truck seat and intense predator management happens 365 days a year regardless of terrestrial or in the air. Like it or not, they are above the law and are left alone. They still have turkeys and lots of them.
Alm I know is look at your large plantations where bobwhite management is #1. There's a 22-250 in every truck seat and intense predator management happens 365 days a year regardless of terrestrial or in the air. Like it or not, they are above the law and are left alone. They still have turkeys and lots of them.
Flintlocksforme
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Use your traditional muzzleloader during rifle season. What's stopping you?
Flintlocksforme
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Yea and I am one of them. Use whatever you want or need the advantage of to take game legally. All muzzleloaders are not created equal. I refuse to use a percussion gun. To each his own. My family has eaten well off game taken by flintlock rifles and fowling guns for years.
Rancocas
Well-Known Member
The traditional vs modern muzzleloader contention has gone on for years. and probably will continue for many years yet to come. There is no end in sight to that controversy.
As I stated in my first post on this subject, I absolutely despise in-lines because I believe they have been the downfall and corruption of the original intent of muzzleloader/primitive weapon hunting season. They are little different than a modern rifle except that they load from the front.
Yeah, yeah, I know about the so-called in-lines patented back around 1809, but they certainly were not commonly available and they saw little, if any practical use. However, if someone could come up with a replica of one of those early in-lines, I would be okay with them using it for muzzleloader hunting season.
Actually there are a few people hunting with replica matchlocks and snaphaunces such as were common in the 1600's.
Sadly, there are only a handful of states that actually adhere to that original intent and only allow flintlocks or traditional style percussions in their muzzleloader seasons.
As for myself; I do use either a percussion or a flintlock of a kind that were commonly available before the 1860's. In fact, I have used nothing else throughout all the various hunting seasons for over 25 years. I think the last time I used a modern rifle was on a caribou hunt back in 1997. Flintlock and percussion. Rifle and fowler - deer, bear, pig, turkey, and small game. Round ball or birdshot and real blackpowder. You want to spice up your hunts with a unique challenge? Try it.
I don't have any hope that a true muzzleloader/primitive weapon season will come to Tennessee any time soon, but I am happy to continue to hunt with mine.
Now, lets get back to the turkey talk.
Do state conservation/management agencies communicate with data sharing? The turkey issue is widespread and several years deep at this point. Does anybody know anything about how other states are handling it and if there have been any positive responses to attempted remedies?
Shed Hunter
Well-Known Member
I propose that our hunting license doubles as a gas discount card. For KY and TN
As for the buck limit and weapon seasons my opinion is definitely becoming a little more open to keeping TN a state that allows a broad range of people to be able to hunt and enjoy staying in the woods for a longer period of time. Lowering to a one buck limit could very easily have TN producing some larger deer, but with that said there are plenty of quality deer in TN. I doubt a substantial difference will be seen, and I know it doesn't need to be seen. Our state will very likely never entirely compare to the Midwest and the northern part of the country/Canada. Soil quality and Bergmann's law aren't things we can change. As a result trophy minded hunters would likely hit a stand still in satisfaction no matter the rules set in place. This is where I choose to prioritize the average hunter's experience rather than over restricting our hunting. The most important thing for hunting in the United States is keeping our young hunters interested and allowing meat hunters to keep their freezer full whether it be a spike, a Boone and Crockett, or a doe. A trophy buck is an added bonus-something to strive for.. not something we should wish to be an easier accomplishment through restricting weapons too much and bag limits. Our current set up seems to be fine for a healthy heard
As for the buck limit and weapon seasons my opinion is definitely becoming a little more open to keeping TN a state that allows a broad range of people to be able to hunt and enjoy staying in the woods for a longer period of time. Lowering to a one buck limit could very easily have TN producing some larger deer, but with that said there are plenty of quality deer in TN. I doubt a substantial difference will be seen, and I know it doesn't need to be seen. Our state will very likely never entirely compare to the Midwest and the northern part of the country/Canada. Soil quality and Bergmann's law aren't things we can change. As a result trophy minded hunters would likely hit a stand still in satisfaction no matter the rules set in place. This is where I choose to prioritize the average hunter's experience rather than over restricting our hunting. The most important thing for hunting in the United States is keeping our young hunters interested and allowing meat hunters to keep their freezer full whether it be a spike, a Boone and Crockett, or a doe. A trophy buck is an added bonus-something to strive for.. not something we should wish to be an easier accomplishment through restricting weapons too much and bag limits. Our current set up seems to be fine for a healthy heard
