A vote for a change in season structure

[deerchaser007]

Deerchaser,
The farm I grew up on had a fantastic turkey population in the early 2000's. My bedroom window faced the back of the property and in the Spring I would open my window to purposely awake with the gobbles. Out of many years (6+) of "waking up" with the turkeys never once did the gobble every day consistently. Sure a couple would gobble here and there just about every day but one day I could here 10-15 and other days it would 1-2. There was no way I would know for sure how many gobblers where within vicinity if I only went out there to hunt.

I partly agree with you but at the same time I do not think vocalization and behavior are the end all either.


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Did I say that was all there was to know what's in the vicinity? No, that is just one other part of the equation.as rockbound mentioned, large jake groups will shut down mature birds, when there is not enough mature birds in the population! Birds will never gobble consistly day to day. Are hens yelping the same everyday? Do the males not roost with hens somedays? Are they gonna gobble differently once hens start nesting and peak is ending? Did I say that vocalization and behavior are end all? No. You wanna get into the habitat portion now? I can't write a freaking book here! I'm just saying behavior and vocalization are a huge part of it that can be used in management. I will tell you this, if you don't have hens you will not have gobblers!

If you are trying to successfully get your point across might I suggest you use fewer exclamation points.

Also, tell us stubborn hunters what we need to know instead of asking us opened ended questions or giving us homework on a theory that you and a few others share.

Even if your theory is true, hunters spend to few days in the field to make a connection to their vocalization that applying that logic to management would be insane. So that is why I think the state agency (the one we pay) should do the best they can. Do they need improvement? Yes sir, I believe we can all agree on that, but Im sure they can do a better job at it than the vast majority of hunters. Simply by knowing a vast array of hunters I will never put my faith in their hands to properly manage the wildlife. Sure, some of us know a little and some a lot but the majority know how to kill and thats about it (nothing wrong with it either).


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Sorry AT, didn't know I was trying to get a point across. I'm just here talking turkey. Sharing stories and info. If I offend you with my !!!!!!!!, then my apologies! And don't worry, my 7 year old tells me the same with her schoolwork. She wants me to give her the answers instead of me making her learn and think for herself. Oh well! I will say again, I chose to educate myself on more than just killing. Not everyone has to feel the same. At my workplace I constantly fall into the category of why and resolve with my communication training yearly. Its just me, I like to know why on everything, then work on resolve. Everyone falls into differ categories, but we respect each type of communication. I do the same thing here, I respect everyone's opinions.

 

[deerchaser007]

BTW, if folks are serious about the theories I and others post about, just read anything by Dr lovett Williams. IMO, a master! Some of the best reading a turkey hunter/manager can get their hands on. That's all I will say further.

 

[AT Hiker]

BTW, if folks are serious about the theories I and others post about, just read anything by Dr lovett Williams. IMO, a master! Some of the best reading a turkey hunter/manager can get their hands on. That's all I will say further.

Thank you, now somewhere for this 7 yr old to start.


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[woodsman87]

The only thing 100% in turkey hunting is that nothing is 100%.


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[JKC]

not a ton of meat and it really hurts the area you plan on hunting in the future springs.

where have you seen this happen?

There's plenty of meat on a hen, I've been killing em for 4 seasons and haven't noticed any less birds. I've said it before, if I do start seeing less turkeys, I will quit killing hens.


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Its just my opinion but the gains of the meager amount of meat you get from hens vs the effect it has to the population is just not worth it. Plus i just don't get any rush or anything from shooting one except for maybe a sick feeling from doing it. again TO ME shooting a bunch of hens in the fall is nothing more then wanting to just go kill stuff...its not because guys are starving thats for sure.

AMEN TO THAT!!!!!!!

 

[megalomaniac]

... Now being of ranching blood, I could see where a land owners choice of pesticides or cattle wormer might have a negative affect on health.

??? what are you talking about??? The exact same wormer used for cattle is also used for poultry. In fact, I just dosed all my chickens night before last with Valbazen (a common cattle wormer)... 1/2- 3/4cc straight down thier throat. Can't get any more direct than that. 4 months ago, I dewormed them with Safegard (a goat and cattle dewormer). I would have no reservations about dosing my turkeys as well, but don't feel like getting the crap beat out of me by the gobblers in the process.

Oh, and ivermectin is also safe for poultry (of course you only need 1 drop under the wing) to rid them of any mites, ticks, etc. Just like any pesticide, pour the whole bottle (on a cow or chicken) and it will kill them.

It's not the cattle farmers hurting the population.

Congratulations there Mr. Green Jeans, on your ability to dose and worm your critters. Any one of those wormers, when overdosed, especially in fowl, can cause health issues. Turkeys scratching cow pies, day in and day out, around cattle that have recently been wormed with any product you have mentioned above, are going to take in high levels of these drugs. Not to mention the pesticide residue in those pies, especially from permethrin, which many cowman use for fly control. Thousands of dead flies laying around feed bunks, as well as cow pies, being eaten daily. Then there is coccidia, from these same cow pies, around infected momma cows and their calves. Untreated, this parasite will kill anything that walks or flys Turkeys don't have the immune system of other fowl, and would be highly susceptable to this disease. Lets add to that the antibiotic most often used to treat this parasite, as well as scours,(oxytetracycline). This can be injected or given orally, but a lot of cowman these days, use it in feed form, which turkeys scratching around feed bunks are eating by the pound. Now I am not saying these issues are causing the decline in some private land flocks, and your right, they are probably not, but it is certainly possible to some extent. But, in all honesty, this simple minded Florida Cracker would name poachers and predators as the main culprits.

Good grief, there is so much misinformation and wrong information in this post that you would just be better off deleting it altogether....

It IS possible to overdose on wormers, but not with normal agricultural practices. The LD50 of most wormers is more than THIRTY times the recommended dose. In other words, IF you poured 2 or 3 full bottles of wormer down your cow's throat, you MIGHT kill him (about 50-50 chance), then IF the turkeys feasted on his immediately dead flesh for a couple days, they MIGHT be able to build up enough levels to become toxic themselves. But not at normal agricultural practices. If anything, it would actually be beneficial if the turkeys got a therapeutic dosage from the cow.

BTW permethrin is also safe to use in poultry (assuming you again do not pour a couple bottles on your cows to kill them first)

Coccidia IS a problem with fowl.... esp poults or chicks since they don't have much natural immunity. Adult birds HAVE acquired some natural immunity and it is rare for them to succumb to coccidia (unless they become unusually stressed first). But you don't have to worry about your cow's coccidia passing on to wild turkeys regardless... The different coccidia causing illness in animals are species specific and aren't transmitted between species. In other words, your goats can't give it to your chickens, and your cows can't give it to your turkeys.

And when your cows/calves are ill... well, guess what... it turns out that the tetracyclines (as well as sulfa drugs and amprolium (Corid) ) are also safe to use in poultry. Let them eat the feed all they want. It won't cause a problem. Heck, even chick starter is often medicated and perfectly safe to use even in day old turkey poults.

If anything, cattle ranching and the normal practices that go with it are probably responsible for an INCREASE in healthy turkey populations. The supplemental feed from undigested corn in cow-pies, bugs under dried cow-pies, and the increase in bugging habitat (on cattle ground that is rotated properly- assuming it is not overgrazed to the dirt) provides a nice boost to young birds. Combine the supplemental feeds with available water sources that cattle must have, and it's a net win for turkeys. Sure, a few nests are destroyed during hay season (we usually chop up 2-3 annually in recent years- which is acutally a 3 fold decline over our average destroyed back in the 90's), but since that is a constant that has not changed since prior to the turkey explosion, and since the population crash- it would not be responsible for our current decline.

Again, I have no problem with the 4 gobbler spring limit- assuming the season opens after hens are all bred (which usually begins around April 7th on my farms- with nest initiation around the 15th of April). But if we aren't going to change the season dates, we need to be sure enough gobblers remain in the flock to successfully fertilize all the hen's eggs.... in which case I would advocate a reduction of the spring limit from 4 down to 1 or 2 at the most.

 

[megalomaniac]

Up until the last 10, maybe 15 years, the population of turkeys has been doing just fine. TWRA has done a hell of a job with the trapping and relocating turkeys to get the population, state wide, higher than it has ever been. The only thing that has changed, from TWRA, is the introduction of the fall season and the increase in limits. Therefore, why doesn't TWRA cancel the fall season and reduce the limit back to 2 toms in the spring? Leave the season the same, which has always been, as long as I can remember, late March/early April until late April/early May.
Of course, there are other factors, that we have no control over, that will affect turkeys (ex. Weather and predation).

Interestingly enough (and PROBABLY just coincidence)... our spring harvest plateaued out right after these changes were made (AND in addition to moving the season opener a week earlier by the way... it used to be 'the first Saturday in April', and was moved to 'the Saturday closest to April 1st')... since then, our harvest has been stagnant or slowly declining statewide....

And remember, when we hit our peak statewide turkey kill... many parts of the state had still yet to be restocked!... in other words, the total statewide population SHOULD have increased since the entire state was restocked (and one would assume likewise our statewide kill), yet our statewide kill has declined. If that isn't indicative of a problem (even on a statewide level, not just a local level), well then I don't know what is.