Baiting Bill HB1618/SB1942

[Biggun4214]

Let me add just a little.

Just to be clear, aflatoxin rarely "kills" deer, just more or less makes them sick at their stomachs, or "puny". But, that can make them temporarily weaker, and easier for dogs & coyotes to catch. Dripping diarrhea, also probably leaving a trial for those dogs & coyotes to follow as well?

Corn that is spread over a cultivated plot or field is much less likely to develop the aflatoxin mold than is corn poured in a pile in a single "spot".

There are reasons why corn spread around in a field is less likely to develop aflatoxin. Being out in a field, it's more visible to birds flying over. Birds such as blackbirds, crows, and doves will typically eat 100% of the visible corn in a matter of days. This means there is little risk of "piling" (under which aflatoxin is more likely to develop).

Another reason we see less aflatoxin in a field is because whatever corn gets left, it's continuously receiving more sunlight & wind than compared to a pile of corn in the woods. Sun & wind helps keep scattered corn kernels dry and aflatoxin-free. By contrast, corn can mold just being inside an enclosed "feeder", as well as just being "piled" on the ground.

Beyond that, there is another big difference in the aflatoxin risks of a corn field vs a corn "feeder" or a corn "pile'. Much of the corn sold in places like Wal-mart in Tennessee already contains the aflatoxin.

Corn grown in a field, left behind for wildlife, or inadvertently just a farmer's harvest loss, has to "develop" aflatoxin, which again, is simply much less likely in an open field getting sunshine & wind (unlike a shady corn pile in the woods, or an enclosed feeder, the inside burning in direct sunlight). Also, should a farmer accidently dump a "pile" of shelled corn in a field, being very visible to birds (typically crows), it gets quickly eaten, before it develops aflatoxin. It is then NOT replenished, no aflatoxin develops.

As to the deer hunting implications of hunting over a corn field (or plot) compared to a pile of corn in the woods, it's the difference of deer always coming to the same "spot" (bait pile) rather than being scattered around or over a field. And since any corn remaining in a field is not replenished (unlike a bait pile), the deer never spend much time in any particular spot.

In fact, they often are essentially "done" spending much time in any particular field or plot after only a few days of feeding on any one particular item (such as corn). Whatever they were eating, becomes gone, eaten up. But the deer will be back, maybe in days, maybe in weeks, maybe in months, because a field will grow other plants, that will sprout & grow, then become available as food for deer.

Mother Nature just spreads the food out, rather than pouring it from a bag in one spot. This is one of many ways nature "naturally" reduces predation on deer, AND provides deer with a diverse source of foods needed to be healthy. Feeding deer corn is like feeding your child only candy, i.e. not at all healthy, can even stunt bone (and antler) growth.

Another reason a pile of corn develops aflatoxins is the heat generated from the pile. Higher temps stimulates the corn to ferment, grow bacteria, mold etc.

 

[Snake]

This has been an interesting topic ...been told I need to learn how to hunt just because I voted yes . I'm 70 killed hundreds of deer , 11 or 12 mounted bucks no Booner though but I don't need no one to tell me how to hunt . I would take pointers though if I'm hunting ground you've hunted and know and would appreciate it . Baiting could probably help some people who are having trouble seeing deer with the property they have to hunt . Even if is made legal don't think I would do it but will put salt and trophy rock out . I do appreciate every one that participated in this thread even though it has ruffled some feathers but all in all I think we all want what's best for the wildlife because if it's gone they'll be nothing to argue about So everyone have a good night and God Bless !

 

[Slick3006]

Actually, we had a great year in Alabama. Harvest was 47k birds 2022-2023 with an estimated 91% reporting rate. Up 20k birds from 2021. You can figure the rest.

The Mississippi Delta is seeing a great recovery from the Mississippi River flood a few years back. Harvest is still limited, but the birds are coming back. Mississippi numbers are still down from the 40 year high but trending upward. Local populations vary but many counties have more turkeys than they did 10 years ago. Especially areas with recent return to cultuvation (extra feeding for the birds).

The data is all out there. I digress. 2023 was a bounce back year.

If you don't want to supplementally feed deer, I get it.

I've seen the results in places I have hunted and I have seen healthy deer populations that benefit from both well managed land (we are doing a controlled burn this weekend) and an effective feeding program with (SURPRISE) state biologist input.

It can be done. It isn't detrimental.

I've never read one published report from one wildlife biologist that said supplemental feeding was part of the way forward? Ill have to look for studies to understamd the benifits of feeding deer?

"Georgia turkey populations, like those through much of the Southeast, are in decline from successful post-restoration numbers. Biologists esimated that the state had about 250,000 to 300,000 turkeys in 2022. That was down from about 350,000 a few years earlier"

" Alabama Spring hunters have historically taken up to 60,000 or more birds some years, but that dropped to an average of 40,000 for a time. In 2022, hunters took an estimated 35,740 turkeys"...downward trend.

Universities across the Southeast are studying the decline...not just TN.

But hopefully the last couple of favorable springs will help them bounce back...hearing some good reports.

I've never read one published report from one wildlife biologist that said supplemental feeding was part of the way forward? Ill have to look for studies to understamd the benifits of feeding deer?

"Georgia turkey populations, like those through much of the Southeast, are in decline from successful post-restoration numbers. Biologists esimated that the state had about 250,000 to 300,000 turkeys in 2022. That was down from about 350,000 a few years earlier"

" Alabama Spring hunters have historically taken up to 60,000 or more birds some years, but that dropped to an average of 40,000 for a time. In 2022, hunters took an estimated 35,740 turkeys"...downward trend.

Universities across the Southeast are studying the decline...not just TN.

But hopefully the last couple of favorable springs will help them bounce back...hearing some good reports.

Actually, we had a great year in Alabama. Harvest was 47k birds 2022-2023 with an estimated 91% reporting rate. Up 20k birds from 2021. You can figure the rest.

The Mississippi Delta is seeing a great recovery from the Mississippi River flood a few years back. Harvest is still limited, but the birds are coming back. Mississippi numbers are still down from the 40 year high but trending upward. Local populations vary but many counties have more turkeys than they did 10 years ago. Especially areas with recent return to cultuvation (extra feeding for the birds).

The data is all out there. I digress. 2023 was a bounce back year.

If you don't want to supplementally feed deer, I get it.

I've seen the results in places I have hunted and I have seen healthy deer populations that benefit from both well managed land (we are doing a controlled burn this weekend) and an effective supplemental feeding program with (SURPRISE) state biologist input.

It can be done. It isn't detrimental.

I'm done here.

 

[Biggun4214]

It's called hunting not killing. If it was easy everybody would do it.

 

[recurve60#]

Man this thread is even better than the coon hunters thread.

 

[Ski]

I do appreciate every one that participated in this thread even though it has ruffled some feathers but all in all I think we all want what's best for the wildlife because if it's gone they'll be nothing to argue about So everyone have a good night and God Bless !

I agree it's been an interesting topic. And an important one. I do believe most of us want what's best for the wildlife, and we must keep in mind that the entire premise of fish & game laws is wildlife resource conservation. That is the core of this topic.

In 24 pages I have seen the pro bait crowd argue against, deny, and attempt to discredit everything the anti bait crowd has presented for why hunting over bait should remain illegal. But not once yet have I seen a rebuttal where anyone from the pro bait crowd details why hunting over bait would be a positive, beneficial thing for TN's wildlife resources.

 

[DoubleRidge]

I've seen the results in places I have hunted and I have seen healthy deer populations that benefit from both well managed land (we are doing a controlled burn this weekend) and an effective supplemental feeding program with (SURPRISE) state biologist input.

It can be done. It isn't detrimental.

I'm done here

I'm envious of your burn plan..wish we could burn tomorrow...we got a soaking rain last night and the humidity is on the high side.

I always enjoy reading recomendations by wildlife biologist...if time ever allows I would be interested in reading your state biologist supplemental feeding recommendations for deer....always open to learning.

 

[DoubleRidge]

But not once yet have I seen a rebuttal where anyone from the pro bait crowd details why hunting over bait would be a positive, beneficial thing for TN's wildlife resources.

And you wont...because there are little to no benifits for the wildlife.

 

[MickThompson]

I'm envious of your burn plan..wish we could burn tomorrow...we got a soaking rain last night and the humidity is on the high side.

I always enjoy reading recomendations by wildlife biologist...if time ever allows I would be interested in reading your state biologist supplemental feeding recommendations for deer....always open to learning.

I lit some broomsedge today in standing water to see if it would go and it did.

 

[Snake]

I agree it's been an interesting topic. And an important one. I do believe most of us want what's best for the wildlife, and we must keep in mind that the entire premise of fish & game laws is wildlife resource conservation. That is the core of this topic.

In 24 pages I have seen the pro bait crowd argue against, deny, and attempt to discredit everything the anti bait crowd has presented for why hunting over bait should remain illegal. But not once yet have I seen a rebuttal where anyone from the pro bait crowd details why hunting over bait would be a positive, beneficial thing for TN's wildlife resources.

Well...
I have. Supplemental feeding will help wildlife how can hurt if it's material that's not dangerous for them ? Not getting into volleying anymore some call it baiting what about supplemental feeding ? If you happen to hunt near it so what as long as it's legal , hunting over a foodplot wouldn't be any different. Hunting is hunting weather you hunt from a stand , on the ground, in your back yard, from a feeder or a foodplot as long as it's legal. Now for the beneficial part a foodplot is good for deer except the one shot over them as well as the feeder . Now if it's not deemed legal from the powers to be then all this is a " moot point " .

 

[WTNBowHunter]

Hate it.

Learn to hunt.

Couldn't have said it any better

 

[Ski]

Well...
I have. Supplemental feeding will help wildlife how can hurt if it's material that's not dangerous for them ? Not getting into volleying anymore some call it baiting what about supplemental feeding ? If you happen to hunt near it so what as long as it's legal , hunting over a foodplot wouldn't be any different. Hunting is hunting weather you hunt from a stand , on the ground, in your back yard, from a feeder or a foodplot as long as it's legal. Now for the beneficial part a foodplot is good for deer except the one shot over them as well as the feeder . Now if it's not deemed legal from the powers to be then all this is a " moot point " .

You have? I guess I'm still missing it because all I'm seeing is another attempt to compare hunting over bait with hunting over a food plot.

What specifically does hunting over bait do to benefit wildlife? Simple question.

 

[DoubleRidge]

Well...
I have. Supplemental feeding will help wildlife how can hurt if it's material that's not dangerous for them ?

It can hurt by concentrating them in a tight area increasing the likelihood of spreading disease. This is why feeding is not allowed in a known CWD area.
It can hurt from a predator standpoint with predators learning where young deer and other wildlife are concentrating making them more susceptible to attack.
Supplemental feeding is much more expensive than improving the habitat and improved habitat is much healthier and more natural...The risk with feeding deer far outweigh the rewards.

 

[megalomaniac]

Mega....always look forward to your comments on various topics...so with all due respect, nowhere in 19 pages has anyone suggested that deer would be harmed by baiting to the point of extintion?
(if someone said that I missed it?)
I'll admit...l'm surprised, with you being such a passionate turkey hunter, that you could care less about corn piles dotting the landscape while knowing the risk feeding corn brings...like feeding coons and other nest raiiders, giving predators feed stations to focus on knowing the turkeys are coming, possible aflatoxin issues with poults, etc.
With turkey numbers on the decrease in Mississippi and other states its seems as though managers would not want the turkey to face additional challenges that baiting can bring....but you do bring up another great point the anti-baiters can add to the long list of the negatives of baiting... its a total waste of money....a waste of money that could be spent on something more benifical to wildlife....that we agree on.

Was on my way to TN to wear out the coyotes this weekend, so just now reaponding....

Don't get me wrong.... im 100% opposed to baiting.for deer. I think it cheapens the hunt itself and I would liken it to hunting turkeys out of a popup blind. Not my cup of tea.

But I used to be all about the 'gimmicks' (like most hunters are) back in the day... When I moved to MS, the first thing I did was buy pods and swiped anectene (succinylcholine).from the anesthesia carts for bowhunting (cause it was legal in MS and why the hell not?). Double lunged several deer with my bow and they were dead within 70 yards... just like what I was used to when I bowhunted TN. Yup, just a gimmick, wasn't worth fooling with loading pods, etc. The novelty wore off in just 2 bow seasons.

Same thing with baiting. When it was legalized, I lived on top of feeders in the middle of green patches the first year. It just drove me crazy that the bucks I wanted to shoot would come out after dark, but never come out in shooting hours. I was hardheaded and stuck with it most of the season, but finally bailed on the feeders the last week of that first season and hunted travel routes and killed a 5.5yo Feb 12th (season ends Feb 15th here). Since then, I've had quite the microcosm observing varying hunting styles and what's killed on my lease. In 6 years hunting in MS on my lease, there has been a grand total of ONE mature buck killed on a green patch /feeder on my lease (there have been several does and younger bucks killed on feeders).... and the majority of members waste 30 hunts a year staring at a green patch or feeder each year.

That being said... I DO think there is an advantage to outbaiting your neighnors... and that's keeping does in the general area. Keep the does on bait on your property, and the bucks will show up during the rut. I've just found out that the chance of killing an old buck is next to zero on a feeder (maybe because of the excess hunting pressure on the food plots with feeders), but you can kill them during the rut 300y away from a feeder on travel routes.

So... is there any benefit (herd health) to baiting? NOPE, ZERO. is there any negative health consequences for deer to baiting? Probably not (i say 'probably' as there is a potential increased local spread of communicable diseases from close contact).

But what I said before, and will reiterate again... while I don't think baiting for DEER makes a hill of beans difference... putting bait out has the potential for disastrous consequences for other game animals (especially turkeys, due to concentrating birds making them more susceptible to predation, the potential for aflatoxin, the artificial inflation of nest predator populations (raccoons eat the majority of corn in a feeder), etc


So, again, while I could care less about baiting for deer (because it is inconsequential honestly) I'm completely opposed to baiting because of the potential for collateral damage to other species.as well as potentially opening the door to legalize baiting for turkeys (who are COMPLETELY vulnerable to baitimg)

 

[Biggun4214]

Do your supplemental feeding in bear country, they enjoy the corn and playing with feeders.
Closed season feeding, baiting, whatever you want to call it is a double edge sword. While it can help keep bears away from people and avoid problems, it also allow more cubs to survive and overpopulate the habitat. Bears are very transient and will keep increasing their range. When they move to a new area they will find and eat your your deer supplement corn.
Food plots with clover, brassicas, etc are less likely to attract bears. "Baiting " on the other hand will help speed up the expansion of bears across the state. And it's obvious most of you don't want bears.

 

[bjohnson]

Since baiting is so bad and makes it easy to kill deer how about we petition TWRA to make the whole season archery only. Rifle season is too long and is detrimental to the deer herd and don't even get me started on smokeless muzzleloaders.

The above is satire. But the argument that baiting makes it easier to kill deer while true, can be said about the weapon used to harvest game. While yes we are passionate about the game we hunt and the way we hunt, this thread just proves that we as hunters are doing more to divide the hunting community than the anti-hunters.

I don't care how others choose to hunt as long as it's done legally.

 

[DoubleRidge]

Was on my way to TN to wear out the coyotes this weekend, so just now reaponding....

Don't get me wrong.... im 100% opposed to baiting.for deer. I think it cheapens the hunt itself and I would liken it to hunting turkeys out of a popup blind. Not my cup of tea.

But I used to be all about the 'gimmicks' (like most hunters are) back in the day... When I moved to MS, the first thing I did was buy pods and swiped anectene (succinylcholine).from the anesthesia carts for bowhunting (cause it was legal in MS and why the hell not?). Double lunged several deer with my bow and they were dead within 70 yards... just like what I was used to when I bowhunted TN. Yup, just a gimmick, wasn't worth fooling with loading pods, etc. The novelty wore off in just 2 bow seasons.

Same thing with baiting. When it was legalized, I lived on top of feeders in the middle of green patches the first year. It just drove me crazy that the bucks I wanted to shoot would come out after dark, but never come out in shooting hours. I was hardheaded and stuck with it most of the season, but finally bailed on the feeders the last week of that first season and hunted travel routes and killed a 5.5yo Feb 12th (season ends Feb 15th here). Since then, I've had quite the microcosm observing varying hunting styles and what's killed on my lease. In 6 years hunting in MS on my lease, there has been a grand total of ONE mature buck killed on a green patch /feeder on my lease (there have been several does and younger bucks killed on feeders).... and the majority of members waste 30 hunts a year staring at a green patch or feeder each year.

That being said... I DO think there is an advantage to outbaiting your neighnors... and that's keeping does in the general area. Keep the does on bait on your property, and the bucks will show up during the rut. I've just found out that the chance of killing an old buck is next to zero on a feeder (maybe because of the excess hunting pressure on the food plots with feeders), but you can kill them during the rut 300y away from a feeder on travel routes.

So... is there any benefit (herd health) to baiting? NOPE, ZERO. is there any negative health consequences for deer to baiting? Probably not (i say 'probably' as there is a potential increased local spread of communicable diseases from close contact).

But what I said before, and will reiterate again... while I don't think baiting for DEER makes a hill of beans difference... putting bait out has the potential for disastrous consequences for other game animals (especially turkeys, due to concentrating birds making them more susceptible to predation, the potential for aflatoxin, the artificial inflation of nest predator populations (raccoons eat the majority of corn in a feeder), etc


So, again, while I could care less about baiting for deer (because it is inconsequential honestly) I'm completely opposed to baiting because of the potential for collateral damage to other species.as well as potentially opening the door to legalize baiting for turkeys (who are COMPLETELY vulnerable to baitimg)

Thanks for the reply Mega...appreciate the explanation. Hope the Coyote hunt is going well!

 

[DoubleRidge]

Do your supplemental feeding in bear country, they enjoy the corn and playing with feeders.
Closed season feeding, baiting, whatever you want to call it is a double edge sword. While it can help keep bears away from people and avoid problems, it also allow more cubs to survive and overpopulate the habitat. Bears are very transient and will keep increasing their range. When they move to a new area they will find and eat your your deer supplement corn.
Food plots with clover, brassicas, etc are less likely to attract bears. "Baiting " on the other hand will help speed up the expansion of bears across the state. And it's obvious most of you don't want bears.

Interesting point. Living in middle TN we're not having to deal with bears yet.
So we can add bears, and what effect feeding wildlife can have on their expansion, to the list of reasons that baiting is not a good idea.

 

[Snake]

You have? I guess I'm still missing it because all I'm seeing is another attempt to compare hunting over bait with hunting over a food plot.

What specifically does hunting over bait do to benefit wildlife? Simple question.

Look I'll do this one more time. You can't convince me that if all the deer have to eat is browse that supplemental feed won't be beneficial !! As long as it's material that won't harm them. Now you keep your blind ears to what I've said if you want like you have but I'm done . Allow baiting/feeding or not I could care less . You know you can take a horse to water but can't make him drink. I've read the pros and the cons and to a point you can be correct but congregation of deer happens weather or not you have a bait/feeder station . So the diseases they get they keep getting them....you can't out play mother nature . Some of the anti bait crowd have some good points but some are just hypothetical !!!

 

[Ski]

But the argument that baiting makes it easier to kill deer while true, can be said about the weapon used to harvest game. While yes we are passionate about the game we hunt and the way we hunt, this thread just proves that we as hunters are doing more to divide the hunting community than the anti-hunters.

My opposition to hunting over bait being legal has nothing to do with somebody killing a deer over bait. I don't really care how someone hunts. What I care about is the collateral, unintended damage it does to other wildlife. It's already a problem so why invite more of it?

As to dividing hunters I can see some folks holding a grudge but that's just who they are. Hunters are people and at the end of the day we can agree to disagree without being enemies. Conversations like this are necessary to prevent one mindset from ruling everything, and to present as many points of view as possible so the final decisions are more informed. Making the sausage isn't pretty but once it's done everybody gets some.