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CFAZ,

I understand that you like how mature hardwoods look, and enjoy hunting them. I also completely agree that successfully managing for quail in the Southeast has gone the way of the Dodo Bird. Due to the massive increase in predators, viable wild quail populations are a thing of the past, no matter the quality of the habitat.

But I believe you are incorrect in your view of the wildlife quality of oak-pine savannahs. If you want to see some of the most productive deer habitat in the Deep South, travel to the big quail plantations of south Georgia and north Florida. I've worked on some of those properties, and the deer quality and density is phenomenal considering neighboring hardwood regions. Although prescribed fire favors grasses, and deer are not grass eaters, fire also promotes many annual herbaceous weeds, and during the summer deer are definitely "weed eaters." Oak-pine savannah produces far, far, FAR more deer food than a mature oak forest does.

Now I fully "get" any hunter who says they don't like the look and feel of hunting oak-pine savannah. I'm fine with that. But the wildlife production of that habitat outperforms mature hardwoods 10 to 1.
Well thought out post. Yes, I do prefer hunting the big hardwoods over the pine savannah, but I have hunted it some down in South Carolina and I will grant you it is productive hunting. But there is more to hunting than productivity for me. Its all about the quality of the hunt. Daylight breaking in an open pine patch doesn't' hold the same magic to me as it does in the big woods. The brown gold young beeches still hanging onto their leaves, the first squirrel down the tree to rustle the leaves, and then trying to discern that from the footsteps of the deer you always hear before you see - then a twig cracks and that electricity shoots up your spine. Everyone here I know can appreciate all that.

But if you read some of my posts here you will see that my main problem isn't with the savanah itself, but rather with artificially creating it on the Bridgewater property along the Caney Fork headwaters. it doesn't belong there, and I believe that the current forest composition tells us it never was

As I mentioned above, Scotts Gulf has a very unique biology. And the tell here is this case is the Hemlocks, which serves as the core part of the "run off processing" bio community. Hemlocks are not fire tolerant at all, are extremely shade tolerant, and also slow growers. Their presence tells us that those areas have never been exposed to regular burning, but rather those little communities survived since the last ice age tucked into their little niches up on the flat protected and shaded by the surrounding hardwoods. Until now that is. Now, well, people assigned to manage this unique property, that for the most part couldn't tell an immature Tsuga Canadensis from a Juniperis Virginiiana if it was growing out of their butts, are allowing those areas to be burned. AND, the wooly adelgid is starting to show up, so those hemlock communities up on the flat are for all intents and purposes dead man standing. Hopefully they can keep the fire out of the gulf, but the adelgid will certainly spread to the lower elevation trees. It is possible to treat individual trees, and they have been very successful at that in nearby areas even more remote like the Cane Creek gulf at Fall Creek Falls. But if there is a plan to treat Scotts Gulf I am unaware of it, especially since the since the treetards in charge there are all focused on their pine savannah case de jour (think global warming for conservative biologists. ). So its a pretty good chance those Hemlock communities in the gulf are dead man standing too. Once those Hemlocks are gone too the whole little bio community that makes those headwaters special breaks down. Rhodendrons go next. The canopy will change, the soil temperatures will rise slightly, but just enough, and the entire unstripped forest community changes to accommodate the latest management de jour tilting at windmills for a species that aint coming back.

There is just a better way,
 
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I've been interestingly watching this thread, but haven't anything much to add, as do see merits in all the opposing views.

I will add that I do not believe there will ever be a robust quail population, there, nor anywhere else in Tennessee, ever again. I'm a big fan of habitat diversity, and this may help a reminant population of Bobwhites continue to survive, but they will never be abundant, never again in TN, unless . . . . . .

Unless, in addition to creating more good quail habitat (which is also good for many other species), we somehow greatly decrease the hawk population, particularly the Cooper's hawk. I don't see that purposefully happening.

But there is more to hunting than productivity for me.
Its all about the quality of the hunt.
I totally agree and totally "get this".
I love hunting ALL the different habitats in different places for this very reason.
Also love hunting species other than just deer.

Daylight breaking in an open pine patch doesn't' hold the same magic to me as it does in the big woods.
Very much disagree with you here, although share your love for the magic of daylight breaking in the big woods. Personally, I much prefer to hear the call of a bowwhite quail at daybreak than the bark of a squirrel.

"Magical" days breaking occur on the water, in the swamps, in the oak savannas, in the pines, wherever. The best is to experience them all.

I lean towards the clearcutting in Bridgeston-Firestone, mainly because there is an abundance of old and older growth forests in Eastern Middle & Eastern TN.

There is just a better way,
That is usually the case, no matter what the initial draft plans suggest.
Not saying they can't come up with a better plan, but leaving so much fully mature maybe isn't the best plan either, imo.
 
I'm no forester, but it doesn't take a forester to realize the benefit of species diversity when it comes to land management for all types of game...

The question is.. would clear cutting the land and maintaining it as a pine savanna with periodic fires produce more habitat diversity than what is currently there? I don't know the answer to that question, but I would be in favor of what is going to produce the most biodiversity habitat wise.. which by default will support more animals (both game and non game species)
It would say it all depends on how you want to count diversity.

You will lose or greatly reduce the quantity on all of the hardwood species, They will leave a few White or maybe Chinkapin oaks, but they will greatly be reduced in number. All the rest will be gone. all your Red Oaks, Chestnut Oaks, Black Oak, Post Oak etc... All your Hickories - shagbark, etc.. All your wild Cherry Trees, All your Beech Trees, All your Ash Trees, All your mature Tulip Poplar, All your mature Persimmon, All your mature Sassafrass, All your Black Walnut. All your mature Dogwood and Red Bed, I can't remember seeing any Basswood or Pecan in there, but if so gone too. Plus all your Hemlocks of course, to be followed by the Rhodendron. There is certainly more to be gone this just off the top of my head.

In replacement you will have Shortfleaf pine and broomsedge, and Red Cedar, And if things go to plan hopefully the broomsedge will be replaced by a variety of native grasses and shrubs . And if it doesn't it will be replaced by invasive - Ailanthus, Kudzu, honeysuckle, multiflora rose, etc...

Anything that can't get out of the way of the fire is toast, (literally) All the amphibians like salamanders and moist skin creatures that live on the hardwood leaf clutter are gone. They will be replaced by dry loving lizards though. There will likely be a ton more snakes. (which are just wunnerful for the quail)

They like to tell you there will be more songbirds, but actually they will just be more open field varieties. The ones that like the big hardwoods will be gone. Woodpeckers, including the big pileated, are especially SOL. Bats are SOL. (somebody could probably shut down the whole project with that one)
Whipporwills are SOL. Chuck Wills Widows might like it better. There even might be a few quail but not in enough numbers to hunt.

Predators will like the savannah better - coyotes, bobcats, will increase because the rabbit and mouse population will increase, Squirrels are SOL they stole their nuts. Especially flying squirrels, which nobody thinks about because even though they far outnumber even gray squirrels only come out at night, are especially SOL. (that funny peeping your hear at night in the woods that you think is birds is actually flying squirrels). Coons and possums and skunks are survivors but they might take a little hit.

The bigger games species will depend on how much success they have in getting the desired underbrush to come back. I personally don't think there will be any more deer, but they will be well fed if it all works out so maybe. Turkeys would likely see an increase, but there are already a blue zillion of them so you would have to work pretty hard to mess that up. Besides they can fly so they just go where they want. Bears moving into that area lately but they will likely move on. I have speculated that all the bear sightings this spring in VB county (like on my place) had something to do with their latest big clearcut but thats just speculation. The hogs will move out at first, then move back in, they certainly do just fine in all the similar pine scrub crap across the river.

Just some rambling thoughts on your question, but to summarize I would say certainly less tree diversity, the squirrels and amphibians and woodland birds are big losers. Big winners would be open field songbirds, coyotes, bobcats, snakes, lizards, and rabbits, and probably turkeys too. Deer numbers I have my doubts, but they might see an increase for the simple reason nobody will want to deer hunt that crap anymore. There might be a few more quail, but the predator increase is going to make it tough for them still.

Just my personal thoughts and opinion on your question written as it came into my head.
 
I've been interestingly watching this thread, but haven't anything much to add, as do see merits in all the opposing views.

I will add that I do not believe there will ever be a robust quail population, there, nor anywhere else in Tennessee, ever again. I'm a big fan of habitat diversity, and this may help a reminant population of Bobwhites continue to survive, but they will never be abundant, never again in TN, unless . . . . . .

Unless, in addition to creating more good quail habitat (which is also good for many other species), we somehow greatly decrease the hawk population, particularly the Cooper's hawk. I don't see that purposefully happening.


I totally agree and totally "get this".
I love hunting ALL the different habitats in different places for this very reason.
Also love hunting species other than just deer.


Very much disagree with you here, although share your love for the magic of daylight breaking in the big woods. Personally, I much prefer to hear the call of a bowwhite quail at daybreak than the bark of a squirrel.

"Magical" days breaking occur on the water, in the swamps, in the oak savannas, in the pines, wherever. The best is to experience them all.

I lean towards the clearcutting in Bridgeston-Firestone, mainly because there is an abundance of old and older growth forests in Eastern Middle & Eastern TN.


That is usually the case, no matter what the initial draft plans suggest.
Not saying they can't come up with a better plan, but leaving so much fully mature maybe isn't the best plan either, imo.
Good post.

You have read all of this so asking your opinion as an experienced hunter in a variety of habitats.

What is your opinion on converting it to pine savannah vs a series of smaller selective clearcuts and letting it naturally regenerate?
 
Hey Guys. New member here but long time reader. Love to read here for the info but never join or post as I am not much of an internet or social media person. But thought this subject would be of interest to many here so am breaking my self imposed exile for just this topic and thread only.

A few weeks ago was doing some work on my deer huntin patch (we call it the Champ Ferguson Autonomous Zone) up on the plateau and heard on the radio about some White County hunters expressing their concerns about clearcutting at Bridgestone WMA. I had been there this year and knew they were cutting out some of the pines for quail habitat, but it turns out much of the hardwood is slated to go too, which in my opinion will just about destroy the deer hunting there. So after doing some research I found that State Representive Sherrell was involved in trying to set up a meeting with the TWRA to discuss it. So I sent him an email, along with all the other area reps, but so far have only heard back from Senator Mark Pody who let me know he is looking into it. This is a great hunting area and I thought the guys here should know whats going on before they just show up one day to hunt and find your huntin spot is now just broomsedge and kudzu.

Sorry to be such a downer with my first post but I figure there are guys here that are not going to be really happy if they knew this being planned. I use the area several times a year and I know I wasn't when I heard about it.

Will try to post the pertinent links but I am new to this so it might take me a few tries.

Link to news radio bit.

Link to Rep Sherrells FB regarding meeting (note the video no longer exists)


Here is the text of the email I sent.

We are writing to express our concerns regarding the TWRA's plan to clearcut a huge swath of mature hardwood forest at the Bridgestone Firestone WMA in an attempt to expand the quail habitat there. We first heard of this on the radio last week while visiting our property in Van Buren County, then saw on Facebook where you were involved in addressing your local constituents concerns in this regard. Although we do not reside in your district my wife and I are frequent users of this property for hiking, and as a regular Sportsman License holder I sometimes hunt there as well. We would like to chime in with our opposition to this project.

We were hiking at Bridgestone this spring and were shocked at the "war zone " appearance of the property just south of the Virgin Falls trailhead. All of what was once a nice pine forest had been clearcut, leaving just open broomsedge and logging slag, and it was already starting to erode. We also noticed that there had been proscribed burning done in the hardwood sections, and with apparently no controls to keep it out of the hollows and into the fragile Hemlock forested areas. As you may be aware, Hemlock forests nationwide are dying off and may be going the way of the American Chestnut due to the wooly adelgid. Then on top of that we now hear that a thousand of acres of mature hardwood is planned for clearcut as well.


Bridgestone WMA is one of the few areas in middle tennessee where outdoors folks can enjoy the experience of "big woods" hiking and hunting. In our opinion it would be practically criminal to have much of it all cut down, especially since the plan isn't to restore it but rather to turn it into "pine savannah" for "quail habitat". As I understand the TWRAs quail plan, they are essentially attempting to turn lands intended for public hunting into regional "quail sanctuaries", with a target population of 1 quail per 4 acres, with only limited hunting if any until the target populations are reached.. Or to put it another way, a 1000 acre hardwood forest that can support maybe a hundred deer and turkeys, and thousands of squirrels, will be destroyed in the future hope that maybe 250 quail will someday live there. Further, what makes this seem even more nonsensical is that Bridgestone WMA already has thousands of acres of quail habitat, and practically no quail. There is a roughly 700 acre open field area around the maintenance shops that only offers limited hunting. Then there are several thousand acres of pine planation and scrub fields to the south of the river and Scotts Gulf; ideal quail habitat, but again very few quail. Then there are the open fields to the west in the Big Bottom area along the Caney Fork, but that area seems mainly to be managed as open pasture for wild hogs to root in. In other words, Bridgestone already has lots of quail habitat, but due to TWRA mismanagement, there are likely more wild hogs than quail. We see no reason whatsoever for the TWRA to intentionally destroy these perfectly good hardwood forests in a futile attempt to reestablish a sanctuary for a species in numbers that are just not viable in todays environment of exploding coyote and bobcat and hawk/owl populations that will always outnumber the quail themselves, especially on what is intended to be hunting land for the use of and paid for by hunters.
This is almost to the T to what the did at Chuckswan!🤬
 
What is your opinion on converting it to pine savannah vs a series of smaller selective clearcuts and letting it naturally regenerate?
I'm not TheLBLman, but I am a long-time hunter and professional habitat manager. To answer your question, I would MUCH prefer to see the habitat broken up into a patchwork quilt of different habitat types than a single habitat type: patches of mature hardwoods, patches of regenerating hardwoods, patches of young to middle-aged pine, patches of grassland, patches of oak-pine savannah. Diversity of habitat is key to the best hunting.
 
I'm not TheLBLman, but I am a long-time hunter and professional habitat manager. To answer your question, I would MUCH prefer to see the habitat broken up into a patchwork quilt of different habitat types than a single habitat type: patches of mature hardwoods, patches of regenerating hardwoods, patches of young to middle-aged pine, patches of grassland, patches of oak-pine savannah. Diversity of habitat is key to the best hunting.
Good post and you are correct. For my part I am not a professional, but that has been my long term observation as well. The more you break it up, the more game animals you will have. All the stuff we like to hunt, be it deer, turkeys, quail, rabbits, etc.. love the edge.

In this particular case I think we also have to deal with some of the preservation aspect too, though, because of its unique biology along the Caney headwaters, as I have already mentioned above, That said, I think all could still be accomplished with a little imagination.

First off, leave a mature hardwood strip along the road leading to the Virgin Falls lot. This will satisfy concerns like those raised by Representative Sherrell regarding wanting to keep a wilderness like feel to approach road to Virgin Falls as there is a movement to make it a state park. You see the forest service do that all the time with their clearcuts (or they did 40 years ago when i worked for them don't know about now,) and also a lot on Crown Land clearcuts in Canada. (done the fly in fishing there a ton over the years) Seems to work fine.

Also, increase the mature hardwood buffer around the Riparian areas to protect the Hemlocks. They state 1000 ft from the gulf, but thats not near enough, nor does it take into account the ravines. Protecting those areas more would provide the neccessary protection for the Hemlock communities, the exclusive forest dwelling species, as well as still provide a big woods hunting experience.

Next, pick your areas to clearcut - maybe 40 acres at a time, rotating around, and let them naturally regenerate. In one year you would see benefit, on 10 years you would have 400 acres in varying stages of regeneration in the middle of everything else a wildlife paradise. The edge hunting on those areas would be phenomenal.

They already have the grassland as they just did a 1000 acre clearcut, Plus they have 700 acres around the ranch already. Not a grass expert but to me it appears to be just broomsedge. (granted the 1000 acre area is only a year old) Can they not do something to better manage those areas for small game - although to the south end they need to widen their riparian buffer a bit.

The problem with the pine savannah is the fire aspect of it. It just cannot coexist with the Hemlock communities in the Riparian areas north of the gulf. The solution to that is the ground across the river. Already several thousand acres there for them to do their savannah thing to their hearts content, especially since they have already been working on it for decades. So, why, may some folks ask, is fire ok there and not to the north part? Simple question of aspect. The Caney turns west in the gulf, meaning on the south side you have a 1000 foot hole that faces North, the slope favoring the shade and moisture loving trees.. Also not as steep - equals better soil Also the only main tributary running in there is Bee Creek, which has its own gulf and joins the Caney just upstream of Big Spring.

The folks that like to run their dogs for quail and rabbit will howl that they are getting shortchanged under this plan. Assuming that we cannot just yet totally give up on quail, the solution to their needs is obvious.
They need their own spot. There is a ton of timber company land on the plateau and nearby that could be purchased and practically immediately developed for small game management. And from what little I know of the TWRA budget process they will be allocating quite of bit of money towards quail. Well, JUST BUY SOME GROUND AND MANAGE IT FOR SMALL GAME. Then you won't ever have to deal with the deer season bird season, deer hunter, bird dog confilcts, they get their own area. Problem solved,

in fact, the above plan kinda addresses everyones issues.

One more thing occurred to me at lunch. The one gentleman asked about wildlife diversity in a pine savanah and there is one species I forgot to mention that absolutely loves it. Armadillos. If they do that savannah thing I can just about guarantee that Bridgestone will become the armadillo capitol of middle TN. They are already there now in numbers. Would they then become a nuisance to the point their diggings become a source of erosion in the sides of the gulf - some of it especially on the North is pretty dang steep. Considering our experiences with the unintended consequences of invasive species I think its worth at least a little pondering.
 
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What is your opinion on converting it to pine savannah vs a series of smaller selective clearcuts and letting it naturally regenerate?
I'm not The BSK, but I am a long-time hunter and unprofessional habitat manager.

To answer your question, as a deer hunter-manager, I GENERALLY would MUCH prefer to see the habitat broken up into a patchwork quilt of different habitat types than a single habitat type: patches of mature hardwoods, patches of regenerating hardwoods, patches of young to middle-aged pine, patches of grassland, patches of oak-pine savannah.

Diversity of habitat is key to the best hunting, GENERALLY SPEAKING.

However, as I currently understand the plan, I have no problem with the larger scale clear-cutting as proposed in this situation. Sounds like it's not going to be but a few hundred acres initially, years later, becoming a "carve out" of around 1,000 acres?

In other words, this is not going to be a 1,000-acrea clear-cut, but several smaller-clearcuts over a period of years, ultimately totaling @ 1,000 acres? That would make even this somewhat a large "patchwork" of different stages of growth (within this 1,000 acres)?

Lastly, I believe there may be a bit of an experiment here regarding the prospects of augmenting native quail populations. Some believe part of the cause of declining quail populations has been too much fragmentation of their habitat. So, this one is proposing the clear-cuts to be larger, and connecting more (all relatively large), adding up to @ 1,000 acres after a few years.

It may be that going to larger acreages being manipulated is better for quail. Considering we're initially only talking a few hundred acres of several thousand, it will be better for deer (and most wildlife) compared to making no changes whatsoever. Ultimately, we're talking maybe 10% of the old growth forest in this tract?

To me, this seems an overall improvement as stated, but I'm open to other thoughts as well.
 
I don't know enough about all the specific issues to ponder micromanaging the proposed plan, so am not opposed to other ideas. Just thinking, as proposed, it may be more overall good than bad.
 
CFAZ,

My comments were based on producing the best deer and turkey hunting. However, is this the WMA management's goals? I don't think it is. So their plan is based on their goals. I have no problem with a WMA working towards unique goals. I would hate it if that was my primary deer hunting area, but so be it.
 
These are good discussions, Thank you for the replies. A few more random thoughts regarding quail and habitat management on the plateau.

Back when I was growing up and raising/training bird dogs we considered the best quail habitat to be broken farm ground with brushy fence lines, (they seemed to love honeysuckle), along with scattered woodlots. Everything was broken up into 20-40 acre patches - be it woods, fields, etc. There was no fall plowing so the corn and bean stubble stood after harvest. Just about every 40 acre field held a covey, almost alway on the edge, plus there was a lot of what we called CRP ground - mostly broomsedge fields laying fallow where gov,org was paying farmers not to plant there. They generally would not hang in the broomsedge but that was generally where the singles would fly to once you busted the covey. You guys get the picture... but that habitat is gone forever you say, especially on the plateau. Well, maybe not..

Just south of Fall Creek Falls there is a large Amish/Mennonite community (full disclosure I get them mixed up) and they have turned that awful eroded crap plateau ground into kind of a prepper agricultural paradise. They have markets and we sometimes go there to shop (great spot to avoid mask nazis) and when you drive through there the habitat reminds me almost exactly of what I remembered the small farm quail habitat of my youth to be. Small fields of standing corn and grain, brushy fence rows, wood lots, broomsedge, and its actually pretty large - certainly larger than the several thousand acres we are told quail need to hang on. If quail could survive in numbers anywhere on the plateau that area would have to be it. I just wonder if anyone knows if any quail studies have been done in that area to see if they are hanging on in that type of ground. Admittedly those folks aren't going to be on the forum or even the internet, but just curious if anyone knows if anyone has looked into it.

Random thought number 2 - this time regarding hunting Pine Savannah.

My favorite book growing up was Robert Ruarks "The Old Man and The Boy". It was all about the authors experiences of hunting and fishing while growing up back in the 20s in coastal North Carolina. He was a huge quail hunter, fisherman, deer hunter, plus just a font of home grown wisdom. The book is still in print and would be a great read for any adult or kid interested in hunting. I still have a copy on my shelf (in fact I have a whole collection of Ruarks works) He did other hunting books as well, (The Horn of the Hunter for one. ) but if you want to read about quail hunting pine savannah back in the heyday this book is for you.
 
CFAZ,

I'm a firm believer our "maintaining quail populations" problem is primarily predator driven.

If we had thousands of contagious top-end quail habitat, I would agree the main problem becomes predation, and it is that predation that will prevent robust quail populations (my opinion) even with large-scale great quail habitat.

But across much of TN, the #1 factor that caused the great quail decline was fescue hay replacing native grasses. This happened before the huge increases in predators (particularly the hawks).

In many the agricultural areas of West TN, the #1 factor is likely not fescue, but may be farming practices, particularly the use of herbicides/pesticides eliminating both brood cover and young chicks' food (insects). "Clean" farming practices leave little cover, little to eat for baby quail, while at the same time making them more vulnerable to predation. Baby quail live on insects. If there are no insects, they may starve long before Mr. Cooper catches them.
 
If we had thousands of contagious top-end quail habitat, I would agree the main problem becomes predation, and it is that predation that will prevent robust quail populations (my opinion) even with large-scale great quail habitat.

But across much of TN, the #1 factor that caused the great quail decline was fescue hay replacing native grasses. This happened before the huge increases in predators (particularly the hawks).

In many the agricultural areas of West TN, the #1 factor is likely not fescue, but may be farming practices, particularly the use of herbicides/pesticides eliminating both brood cover and young chicks' food (insects). "Clean" farming practices leave little cover, little to eat for baby quail, while at the same time making them more vulnerable to predation. Baby quail live on insects. If there are no insects, they may starve long before Mr. Cooper catches them.
Wes, I've worked on quail plantations exceeding 10,000 contiguous acres of the best quail habitat money can produce, and they still struggle to keep viable wild bird populations. Why? Predators.
 
Wes, I've worked on quail plantations exceeding 10,000 contiguous acres of the best quail habitat money can produce, and they still struggle to keep viable wild bird populations. Why? Predators.
Yes, in such environment, I agree, predators.

I'm saying that "statewide" across most of TN, predators were not the primary cause of the great decline. But they may be the #1 reason now we will never have good quail populations again, even if we created lots of great contiguous habitat.

Also, I suspect back until the early 1960's, statewide, we may have had hundreds of thousands of contiguous decent quail acreage. Even though 10,000 acres sounds huge (by today's standards), we're still talking about an area less than 4 square miles in size, which would be only a tiny corner of any of TN's 95 counties.

The much larger areas of contiguous habitat likely greatly contributed to the robust quail populations of the 1940's & 50's. Subdivisions & development broke it up over a period of decades, as fescue replaced native grasses, and "clean" farming methods reduced brood habitat and food sources for baby quail. Quail populations became more and more fragile and fragmented, almost extinct in much the state now.
 
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Wes, I've worked on quail plantations exceeding 10,000 contiguous acres of the best quail habitat money can produce, and they still struggle to keep viable wild bird populations. Why? Predators.
Thank you for this and II have no doubt this is true. But it also raises several more questions.

The first is, as I mentioned above in my habitat wildlife winners and losers post, that I suspect the biggest winners in the conversion to pine savannah are rabbits and mice, followed by coyotes, bobcats, and snakes, (along with armadillos). (I know you think deer and turkeys too but my question here relates to these predators), Do you think that is what makes it a zero sum game - in that the varmints that eat quail get as much or more benefit out to the new habitat than the quail themselves? If so, then wouldn't converting to that habitat actually be destructive to the populations in the surrounding properties?

Second question is a bit more complicated, but I think its worth asking......Assuming that most property managers and quail biologists know that the habitat thing is not going to work.....And that while gov,org does lots of stupid stuff, but the actual people doing it are not stupid themselves, but actually can be quite devious when working an agenda..... One has to ask why they are telling us this plan will work....when they already know it can't,

Or to put it another way, and a bit more bluntly, is there a possibility that they are using the quail management plan to drive an agenda that they know up front doesn't include quail? It could be a budget trick or source of grant funding. It could be a way to gain support to get their pine savannah converision thing for deer forced down everyones throat when they know up front a lot of folks don't like it. (in the video you could see the old biologist giving the hardwood hunters the basket of deplorables treatment). Or maybe the horse nazi wing wants more trails. I know there was some agreement with the folks at the Nature Conservancy for the TWRA to provide horse trails on their Chestnut Mtn property that connects to Bridgestone. And Chestnut Mtn fits square between Bridgestone, Virgin Falls, the new Dog Cove addition at Fall Creek, and the Lost Creek Area. Doesn't the horsy group prefer pine savannah over hardwood (genuinely asking don't know squat about horses). Or some other agenda thing they have up their sleeves and a quail plan is a good avenue to get it achieved even if they already know the quail plan is doomed to fail before they start. Might sound a bit tinfoil, but if you know the Champ story you know trusting gov.org for his promised parole in the end didn't turn out well for him at all.

Sounds crazy I know, but on the other hand, how much money is gonna be spent on eliminating fossil fuels to fix climate change?
 
Doesn't sound tinfoil hat, sounds like you are desperate to get your way and willing to grasp at any straws. You first post said that this will destroy trails but now it's a grand conspiracy to build horse trails instead...make up your mind, pick a conspiracy, and stick with it.

At a somewhat smaller scale habitat improvement is working quite well at kyker bottoms refuge in Blount county. It boasts a very robust population of 100% wild birds. Fall estimates are usually a bird per 1-2 acres- about as good as you can get without supplemental feeding and intensive trapping. The habitat at the farm isn't nearly that good but it could be, and at a scale that isn't possible at kyker.
 
If we had thousands of contagious top-end quail habitat, I would agree the main problem becomes predation, and it is that predation that will prevent robust quail populations (my opinion) even with large-scale great quail habitat.

But across much of TN, the #1 factor that caused the great quail decline was fescue hay replacing native grasses. This happened before the huge increases in predators (particularly the hawks).

In many the agricultural areas of West TN, the #1 factor is likely not fescue, but may be farming practices, particularly the use of herbicides/pesticides eliminating both brood cover and young chicks' food (insects). "Clean" farming practices leave little cover, little to eat for baby quail, while at the same time making them more vulnerable to predation. Baby quail live on insects. If there are no insects, they may starve long before Mr. Cooper catches them.
I know fescue gets blasted for quail but I have to say that back in the day we had fescue on our ground and we would jump quail in it. It wasn't the best hunting- crop field edges and honeysuckle were (and railroad right of ways too forgot to mention those they were covered with honeysuckle and were great) but we would find them in the fescue - kinda like the broomsedge they used it for cover. On the other hand there were a lot more quail so I could agree its not ideal but they would definitely hang out in it. The one thing that absolutely loved our fescue field was meadowlarks. They would almost swarm it. Haven't heard one of those for years, have they gone the way of the quail?

Now farming practices I think, combined with coyotes, is just a one two punch they could never recover from, Fall plowing is huge, edge to edge no brushy fence rows is huge. Nothing to eat, no place to hide, and coyotes running the fences every night looking for nests. And as you mention, hawks, and them with no place to hide.
 
Doesn't sound tinfoil hat, sounds like you are desperate to get your way and willing to grasp at any straws. You first post said that this will destroy trails but now it's a grand conspiracy to build horse trails instead...make up your mind, pick a conspiracy, and stick with it.

At a somewhat smaller scale habitat improvement is working quite well at kyker bottoms refuge in Blount county. It boasts a very robust population of 100% wild birds. Fall estimates are usually a bird per 1-2 acres- about as good as you can get without supplemental feeding and intensive trapping. The habitat at the farm isn't nearly that good but it could be, and at a scale that isn't possible at kyker.
Well, what about those horse trails connecting Chestnut Mtn and Bridgestone. There is no denying thats planned - I watched a Nature Conservancy video bragging about it as a means to gain funding. No tin foil hat there because thats a fact,

And regarding the quail at Bridgestone - hows it going over at Mooneyham for the past 20 years or so. More of the same gonna magically fix that?

And hows the soil at Kykers bottom compare to Bridgestone? Just curious never been there.
 
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