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Bridgestone Firestone Clearcut

I've never hunted the area as live farther east. I have hunted chuck swan. And those clear cut areas are a complete disaster. Not sure what there goals were there. They do have some areas managed and they are nice. Still can't hunt any birds at all. Because there isn't a big enough population of any quail or grouse is what I'm told. I deer hunt mostly but do have GSP dogs I hunt with. I wish populations of birds would be better.but you need habitat that doesn't exist like it use to. Farmers spraying fence rows and predators done that in. Among other things. Hope all this gets resolved at Bridgestone the right way so everyone is happy.
 
CFAZ,

I have no knowledge of the "politics" involved in the WMA in question. I will agree sometimes agenda's other that deer and turkey hunting are involved, but much depends on what the managers are focused on. Generally, they are pretty open about what their goals are in their public plans. And again, I have problems with wildlife plans that focus on species other than deer and turkey.
 
My nickname in high school was bird dog. I quail hunted, every day. I played baseball and we had what was called athletics instead of class 6th period. We did not do much in the winter so I left school every day at 2 and went quail hunting. I killed tons of quail. One of the main things I noticed when the quail disappeared was the hunters. My dad taught me to never kill a covey down to nothing. We would not hunt a covey again for the rest of the season when it got down to 8 birds. In middle Tennessee there were more quail than you would ever believe.

When I last hunted quail, the younger hunters would kill every bird they could and never leave any to reproduce. I believe farming practices and predators, turkeys may be the worst for quail, were more detrimental than anything, but killing coveys down to a couple birds or all of them did not help either.
 
I think one more item needs to be mentioned if it hasn't been. It costs quite a bit of money to clear ground and maintain it in a Savannah habitat. Fire is of course cheapest but still comes with cost upfront and long term. The TWRA should actually make money by just simply clearcutting on a rotational basis and letting nature do it's thing. Not that im against spending money but I see that TWRA is stretched thin and funding and funding priorities tend to change over time with any government agency. Something to think about, there is so much deferred maintenance at WMA's that could really use some funding.
 
CFAZ said:
What makes me righter than you is that nobody is wanting to cut down or tear up 1000 acres of your hunting spots, which is perfectly good hardwoods, when there is an even bigger spot of mature pine across the river on the same WMA. Its one thing to develop habitat - its another to destroy existing and make it an either/or.

We don't disagree on the need for more open field hunting areas, I would love to have those too. But rather on tearing up 1000 acres of perfectly good hardwood instead of just clearcutting the pines they already have across the river or better yet buying some of the nearby timber company land that is mostly pine, if not already stripped, and doing their quail thing on that.
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Wait. I'm just realizing... You created an account just to complain that they're cutting timber on a spot you hunt?

That's about as Karen as it gets.

You should definitely talk to the manager.

EDIT:

I posted this as i was reading the beginning of the thread. As the thread has gone on you've seemed more reasonable. So, I won't delete what I posted, but I will say it's probably not totally deserved.

I will say though, TWRA's responsibility is all wildlife, not just game animals. It's these diverse habitats that are requisite for such endeavors. And we shouldnt fail to recognize that protecting and fostering all wildlife probably protects those things we love down the road.
 
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RoyalPrudent said:
Wait. I'm just realizing... You created an account just to complain that they're cutting timber on a spot you hunt?

That's about as Karen as it gets.

You should definitely talk to the manager.

EDIT:

I posted this as i was reading the beginning of the thread. As the thread has gone on you've seemed more reasonable. So, I won't delete what I posted, but I will say it's probably not totally deserved.

I will say though, TWRA's responsibility is all wildlife, not just game animals. It's these diverse habitats that are requisite for such endeavors. And we shouldnt fail to recognize that protecting and fostering all wildlife probably protects those things we love down the road.
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Been called a lot of things in my life, but never a Karen. Thats a first.

If you read everything I posted you would have seen where while I have hunted that area some I mainly hunt my own ground and my concerns surround the loss of big hardwood deer hunting opportunities for folks stuck mainly hunting public land, as well as degradation of the quality of hiking in the area, plus a whole lot about permanent damage (as in elimination ) of the hemlock community forests and its effect on the unique upper Caney watershed.

Talking to the manager would be useless as its part of a much larger plan. Only the politicians can do anything about it at this point, (who were already involved before I started the thread) and it is public land, so posted this to raise awareness and also to educate folks about what is there and what makes it unique, and the repercussions of changing the habitat that they may not have been aware of. Not a social media guy, no FB account don't even have a smartphone just a flip phone and 10 year old mac. I am a one thread guy here once this plays itself it or I get kicked out I will happily go back to minding my own business . I was upfront about that in the OP.


If that makes me a Karen, then guilty as charged. although i would more characterize it as maybe a Lorax, or better yet, Treebeard the Ent the tree herder trying to protect his forest from those nasty lying tricksy orccssesss. (meant to be humor although likely epic fail if nobody here likes the Hobbit or reads Dr Suess)
 
Bone Collector said:
Wish they would do it at LBL too...
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You're are preaching to the choir.
Many would like to greatly enhance the LBL habitat.
But many others "cry foul" at the mere mention of cutting down some old trees, some even file lawsuits against proposed projects, resulting in delays and cancelled project plans.

Just like we're seeing on this thread here, some oppose, some embrace, whatever.

BSK said:
I have problems with wildlife plans that focus on species other than deer and turkey.
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For sure, more of us are generally interested in deer and turkey here, but those are not the only species that should be considered.

As a friend of mine often says, "Every situation is site specific."
I say every circumstance can have very different goals as well.

In some areas, perhaps there should be more focus on small game than just deer & turkey?

In other areas, perhaps there should be more focus on waterfowl?
Maybe even an endangered species such as quail & grouse?
 
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CFAZ said:
Been called a lot of things in my life, but never a Karen. Thats a first.

If you read everything I posted you would have seen where while I have hunted that area some I mainly hunt my own ground and my concerns surround the loss of big hardwood deer hunting opportunities for folks stuck mainly hunting public land, as well as degradation of the quality of hiking in the area, plus a whole lot about permanent damage (as in elimination ) of the hemlock community forests and its effect on the unique upper Caney watershed.

Talking to the manager would be useless as its part of a much larger plan. Only the politicians can do anything about it at this point, (who were already involved before I started the thread) and it is public land, so posted this to raise awareness and also to educate folks about what is there and what makes it unique, and the repercussions of changing the habitat that they may not have been aware of. Not a social media guy, no FB account don't even have a smartphone just a flip phone and 10 year old mac. I am a one thread guy here once this plays itself it or I get kicked out I will happily go back to minding my own business . I was upfront about that in the OP.


If that makes me a Karen, then guilty as charged. although i would more characterize it as maybe a Lorax, or better yet, Treebeard the Ent the tree herder trying to protect his forest from those nasty lying tricksy orccssesss. (meant to be humor although likely epic fail if nobody here likes the Hobbit or reads Dr Suess)
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It's whatever, but you're on the environmentalists side of this argument. The amount of uncut "Big Woods" acres in TN that is open to the public is truly unbelievable. I can't tell if you're unaware of that or choose to ignore it. Nonetheless, all evidence contradicts the things you say...
 
CFAZ, I understand what your saying but maintaining old growth timber isn't good for any wildlife it's an ecological desert. If nature is allowed to take course and fires are allowed to burn in parts of these forest all is well and new growth and habitat is allowed to regenerate. The problem is look at the fit all these environmental groups throw in response to any kind of sound timber management. Look at LBL and DBNF in Kentucky. They are mismanaged stands of timber that are a shadow of what they could/should be bc of the selfish and misguided intentions of enviro groups. And they do not represent what they historically should be.
 
TheLBLman said:
For sure, more of us are generally interested in deer and turkey here, but those are not the only species that should be considered.
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For some reason, I didn't type the "don't" part in that sentence! It should have read: I DON'T have problems with plans not focused on deer and turkey.

Having a different focus on a WMA is a good idea. I would hate to see all WMAs managed the same.
 
BSK said:
CFAZ,

I have no knowledge of the "politics" involved in the WMA in question. I will agree sometimes agenda's other that deer and turkey hunting are involved, but much depends on what the managers are focused on. Generally, they are pretty open about what their goals are in their public plans. And again, I have problems with wildlife plans that focus on species other than deer and turkey.
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Thank you sir for your thoughtful reply. Did some talking and researching have a little more inside info so here is my take on the situation.

There is a huge push at the state level to do the shortleaf pine savannah thing everywhere they think they can get away with it. Its just the thing now like the climate change lobby and there is no stopping it. Being driven by TDEC, and there is a absolute ton of grant and government money following it. Also the different agencies all do their own thing, very little forestry coordination between state, state park, and TWRA, (and its often on purpose). but the plan is pine savannah everywhere. The horsey people love it because it means lots of new horse trails but they are not driving it, TDEC is. TDEC is even giving The Nature Conservancy at Chestnut Mtn money for maintenance if they put in horse trails connecting up the new properties they have purchased and are converting. So of course, Chestnut Mtn is becoming Pine Savannah Mtn too. (I even watched a Nature Conservancy biologist tell somebody there is no evidence there was ever any Chestnut on Chestnut Mtn so it has to be converted back to Pine Savannah).

They have pretty much given up on the Hemlocks as an ongoing forest community because they think they are going extinct like the American Chestnut due to the wooly adelgid. So they really aren't too worried about them being caught up in prescribed burns up on the flat because they are dying out anyway. In fact they think they are invasive there and never would have been established had the pine savannah been maintained. Makes no sense to manage around a species that won't be around anymore. They will continue to treat them in a few park areas where folks can see them but our generation is pretty much the end of the line for the great Hemlock forests in TN.

Quail management makes a good headline but the agenda is actually Pine savannah. Any quail they get will just be a bonus, but Shortleaf Pine Savanah is the true goal.

With the money and politics behind it there is no stopping it and there is no saving any Hemlock forests or any big hardwoods they have slated for conversion. Done deal our grandchildren will decide if it was a smart decision or not.

For my part I am pretty much done here with both my efforts and my forestry lessons because there is no use in continuing. Will crawl back in my hole and enjoy the forum from afar.

I will do a couple of things on my own however. First off I will be adding Hemlocks on my own CFAZ property as a I have good spot for them and can treat them myself. The second is my days of buying a Sportsman License for me and my wife are over. I am done with hunting orc land and no license is needed to hunt the big woods on my own place which is productive enough for our needs. Just a fishing license and trout stamp is all I need going forward.

But before I go, here is a gift to the forum for allowing me to participate here. I am getting a bit old now to drag deer out a mile and 500 feet uphill, and won't be going back there anyway. so I am giving up my favorite public hunting spot. Bear Hollow Mtn is a terrifically managed WMA and has it all -food plots, brush on the top and tons of big hardwood in the gulfs. Tons of pressure on the flat - practically none in the gulf and that is where the bucks are. The problem is getting down there due to the bluff line. However, at GPS cooridinates N 35 .02. 554 W 085 59 903 there is what I call Buck Rock a nice landing that the bucks love to cruise. Impossible to get to it without spooking everything in the woods unless you know a trick. If you walk the flat woods along the bluff line just to the west and right above those coordinates you will find about a 10 yard wide cut in the bluff that you can scoot down on your butt to that landing early in the morning without them knowing you are there. Pick a nice spot and wait they will come by. Getting one out is a problem especially if they are good sized, (had to cut one in half once.) But you don't come out back up the cut, you instead drag it south then up to the parking lot. Pretty much separates the men from the karens, but it is what it is. And if you don't see one on your sit you have will have good stalk back to the truck. Never once seen another hunter there. Have no trouble posting here as probably less than 1 in 10 guys reading this could physically make the pull back out. But if you are a young and fit feller needing a place to hunt and wanting to have a great big woods hunting experience with a high probability of success there you go.

Thanks to all for your time and attention. From here on out you can potshot away as I will be not be responding.
 
Actually, CFAZ, most of us on these forums would appreciate hearing your thoughts, ongoing.

I'm sure your starting this thread has enlighted many who previously didn't know what they didn't know about much what has been discussed on just this one thread.
 
CFAZ said:
There is a huge push at the state level to do the shortleaf pine savannah thing everywhere they think they can get away with it. Its just the thing now like the climate change lobby and there is no stopping it.
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Do you have any supporting documentation here? If not, this is a huge statement to just throw out there. I'm not sure I even understand how the two are parallel.
 
I am good with it. Clear cut away. Most wma's have way to much old hardwoods that are not good for anything. Wonder who I can contact to do more of this? For sure wish they would clearcut a couple thousand acres at LBL. Actually, Cheatham, AEDC, Laurel Hill, Eagle Creek, Natchez Trace would be great places to clear thousands of acres for starters. Just as much as you oppose it, I may try to start a movement to encourage clear cutting. Maybe even timber a bunch of land and actually put in some food plots.
 
Headhunter said:
For sure wish they would clearcut a couple thousand acres at LBL.
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Despite the popularity of bashing LBL's habitat managment, this was pretty much done within the past few years in Area 12. But, it had to be done in conjunction with the approval of environmentalists who often will not approve traditional clear-cuts with natural regeneration. It had to be called and ongoing maintained as an "Oak Savannah".

Also note that prescribed fire is now used throughout LBL on a regular basis, somewhat off-setting the lack of agricultural crops today (in terms of increasing food supplies for wildlife).

Count your blessings LBL didn't get designated a true "Wilderness" area or a National Park as some environmentalists would like to see. In the meantime, keep in mind LBL is charted a "National Recreation Area", and is not a typical WMA managed mostly for wildlife.

But you are correct, the deer hunting at LBL may be nothing like as good as it once was, when more resources were directed towards enhancing wildlife habitat, and wildlife managers could actually manage more for wildlife instead of whatever the politics of the day. Add to this the complication of some hunters releasing feral pigs at LBL, and now a significant amount of resources is going towards knocking down the pig numbers.

I suspect the calling of some other lands as "something savannah" may be the easiest route with the least resistence for TWRA and other wildlife management groups to make habitat more biodiverse.

All our "public" lands have to be managed based on their (often "chartered" legally) primary uses, sometimes based more on who owns the lands rather than who prefers what (private company vs. federal vs. state governments), as well as whom was chartered to "manage" the properties. There are many legal and counter-legal issues always involved.
 
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TWRA Statement released today.
TWRA wishes to provide correct information regarding habitat management at Bridgestone Firestone Centennial Wilderness Area. Unfortunately, several news stories with incorrect information have prompted the agency to provide concise, scientific information regarding habitat improvements proposed on 230 acres out of the 54,000 acres of public land.

Why would TWRA cut old trees down?

In order to manage for wildlife and public safety effectively, forests must be managed. TWRA must actively create and provide habitat that maximizes benefits to wildlife on the 1.5 million acres that TWRA controls statewide out of the almost 27 million acres in Tennessee. Closed canopy, old growth forests are biological deserts that lack good habitat for most wildlife species because of the absence of ground vegetation. TWRA is restoring one of the most endangered habitats in the U.S. by restoring native grasslands. This project will convert approximately 230 acres of closed-canopy forest to "younger" habitat known as early successional habitat which will benefit a much greater variety of game and nongame species. This initial 230-acre project is included as part of approximately 1,000 acres that has been identified for forest conversion in the future.

Are we managing our forests for profit?

No. Our mission is to preserve, conserve, manage, protect, and enhance wildlife and their habitats. This is the overarching goal for all TWRA managed lands. Harvesting timber does result in revenue, however the estimated revenue on this harvest is between $80,000-$120,000 which will be invested back into the Bridgestone Firestone WMA within a year for wildlife conservation and management. TWRA invests over $200,000 annually for wildlife conservation at this property.

What species will benefit?

Deer, turkey, prairie warbler, field sparrow, loggerhead shrike, yellow-breasted chat, indigo bunting, blue grosbeak, eastern cottontail, dickcissel, quail, numerous endangered plants, and several others. Grassland habitat has many benefits for lots of species. Hunters should know the ground cover vegetation will provide food sources and nutritional requirements for deer antler growth and development during the spring and summer months and acorn production as a fall food source would still be provided. Reducing overgrown forest acreage will greatly enhance nesting and brooding cover for wild turkeys and lead to greater numbers of gobblers.

Why are native grasslands important?

Native grasslands and shrublands are far more important to the conservation of all species than mature forests. This type of habitat provides food and cover to these species whereas mature forests limit light to the forest floor which reduces food, cover and plant diversity. Among many other reasons increasing the quantity of native grasslands in this area will provide a large enough space to positively impact wildlife. In addition, a 2018 study, led by The Nature Conservancy, found that in the U.S., conserving grasslands could prevent almost three times as much carbon emission as conserving forests.

Are we doing this all for quail?

Quail, a species of greatest conservation need in Tennessee, as well as many other songbirds, are limited across Tennessee largely due to a lack of quality early successional native plant communities. TWRA and partners plan to continue these efforts to further increase native grasslands and shrublands to provide and enhance habitat for many wildlife species that either require or benefit from these rare and endangered plant communities.

A public meeting will be held Monday October 4th​ at 6:00 pm at the Sparta Civic Center located 514 East Bockman Way. TWRA along with partner organizations will address any concerns and answer questions from the public.
 

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