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Coyotes are efficient deer killers

Really, really interesting info on night-hunting coyotes Mega.

Planking said:
They always tried to tell us here that coyotes didn't have much of an impact on deer.
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I don't know who "they" are, but you sure won't hear that message from me. Coyotes are major fawn killers (and it sound like on Ames, major killers of all deer). The only thing worse are bears. But luckily bears never live at such high densities as coyotes do. Removing coyotes is a great idea if you do it at the right time and with the right intensity. But as others have pointed out, shooting a few yotes during deer season - although the right idea - has little effect.
 
Here's an odd question: I've always heard (and seen in trail-camera data) that coyotes are major predators of fox. And usually, your fox population is an indicator of your coyote population, as in lots of coyotes means few foxes. Lots of foxes means few coyote. However, over the last couple of years, my local fox population has been exploding, even though my coyote population appears stable or even rising. I get a LOT of coyotes on trail-cam. Yet at the same time, I'm now getting entire families of foxes on cam, and I mean ever single night.

Thoughts?
 
BSK said:
Here's an odd question: I've always heard (and seen in trail-camera data) that coyotes are major predators of fox. And usually, your fox population is an indicator of your coyote population, as in lots of coyotes means few foxes. Lots of foxes means few coyote. However, over the last couple of years, my local fox population has been exploding, even though my coyote population appears stable or even rising. I get a LOT of coyotes on trail-cam. Yet at the same time, I'm now getting entire families of foxes on cam, and I mean ever single night.

Thoughts?
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We rarely get pics of fox and it's rare that we see them. The most I saw or got pics of them was a year that I killed 6 coyotes one spring, and a couple the deer season over the prior fall/winter. Think all total I had killed 9 in about 6 or 7 months.
 
BSK said:
Here's an odd question: I've always heard (and seen in trail-camera data) that coyotes are major predators of fox. And usually, your fox population is an indicator of your coyote population, as in lots of coyotes means few foxes. Lots of foxes means few coyote. However, over the last couple of years, my local fox population has been exploding, even though my coyote population appears stable or even rising. I get a LOT of coyotes on trail-cam. Yet at the same time, I'm now getting entire families of foxes on cam, and I mean ever single night.

Thoughts?
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Coyotes take special joy out of killing foxes. The only foxes we have seen in the past 20 years have been those who den and raise kits where coyotes don't go (like in my farmhouse yard and barn).

If your coyote population hasn't declined as the reason for an increase in foxes, I bet it wont be long before they kill all the foxes.
 
BSK said:
. . . . . my local fox population has been exploding, even though my coyote population appears stable or even rising. I get a LOT of coyotes on trail-cam.

Thoughts?
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I am also seeing an increase in foxes only a few miles north of you.

My take is the foxes have made some adaptions to being preyed upon by coyotes, i.e. survival of the fittest.

Another take is we both have in our areas an increase in rabbits (and probably mice, rats, other small food items which both fox & coyotes eat).

Lastly, I expect you also have an increase in your deer density?

When you have good fawning cover, it is also good for rabbits.
The increase in rabbits shifts some of the coyotes' preying on deer to rabbits.
And, I suspect deer herds preyed upon for years by coyotes, have also evolved a bit to be less susceptible.

At present, in my areas, I believe the coyote population is comparable to what it's been for many years, yet we have seen an increase in the deer population. At the same time, the coyotes might be increasing their populations with all these rabbits, they may then over-eat the rabbits, then start eating more deer?

The dynamics made always be "boom or bust" every few years, effecting by all the above and much more.
 
I hate coyotes, and they do kill both fawns & adult deer.

But I continue to believe much of the answer to minimizing coyote predation is via providing diverse habitat with good fawning cover. I believe coyotes are first & foremost opportunist scavengers, often seen carrying a dead fawn that had died before the coyote found it. Same for our trail cam pics of coyotes walking by with a an adult deer leg.

When it comes to hunting down & killing their prey, coyotes prefer rabbit hunting to deer hunting.

Wage war on the coyotes best you can, but don't overlook the merits of diverse habitat x a healthy deer herd to minimize coyote predation on deer (and turkeys).
 
BSK said:
I'm getting entire families of foxes romping and play (and often hunting mice) in my food plots at night. And not just one or two plots, but most of them.
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Interesting topic...hadnt thought about it before now but on the property where I live I've only seen a coyote a couple of times...red fox on the other hand are pretty common....drive 15 minutes north to the family land we hunt and manage....rarely ever see a fox...but coyotes are more common...but the coyotes seem cyclic...some years we see several....some years not so many?
Another observation I have thought about but dont understand is the fact that as a kid we saw gray fox often and very rarely a red fox...today I honestly couldn't tell you the last gray fox I've seen...only reds.
 
BSK said:
Here's an odd question: I've always heard (and seen in trail-camera data) that coyotes are major predators of fox. And usually, your fox population is an indicator of your coyote population, as in lots of coyotes means few foxes. Lots of foxes means few coyote. However, over the last couple of years, my local fox population has been exploding, even though my coyote population appears stable or even rising. I get a LOT of coyotes on trail-cam. Yet at the same time, I'm now getting entire families of foxes on cam, and I mean ever single night.

Thoughts?
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You'd think foxes would have a good defense against coyotes considering they can climb trees and the dogs can't.
 
TheLBLman said:
I am also seeing an increase in foxes only a few miles north of you.

My take is the foxes have made some adaptions to being preyed upon by coyotes, i.e. survival of the fittest.

Another take is we both have in our areas an increase in rabbits (and probably mice, rats, other small food items which both fox & coyotes eat).

Lastly, I expect you also have an increase in your deer density?

When you have good fawning cover, it is also good for rabbits.
The increase in rabbits shifts some of the coyotes' preying on deer to rabbits.
And, I suspect deer herds preyed upon for years by coyotes, have also evolved a bit to be less susceptible.

At present, in my areas, I believe the coyote population is comparable to what it's been for many years, yet we have seen an increase in the deer population. At the same time, the coyotes might be increasing their populations with all these rabbits, they may then over-eat the rabbits, then start eating more deer?

The dynamics made always be "boom or bust" every few years, effecting by all the above and much more.
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You are probably correct TheLBLman. We have GREATLY increased the amount of fawning cover, which is probably providing fox habitat as well.
 
BSK said:
You are probably correct TheLBLman. We have GREATLY increased the amount of fawning cover, which is probably providing fox habitat as well.
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I wonder how much of the management practices directed at avoiding building a "doe factory" have aided predators like coyotes. Much of those practices avoid creating fawning habitat and reducing summer food, which obviously makes does/fawn have to expose themselves to more risk to find food.
 
lol said:
I wonder how much of the management practices directed at avoiding building a "doe factory" have aided predators like coyotes. Much of those practices avoid creating fawning habitat and reducing summer food, which obviously makes does/fawn have to expose themselves to more risk to find food.
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The research is pretty clear that "fawning cover" does exactly that - protects fawns from predation.
 
BSK said:
The research is pretty clear that "fawning cover" does exactly that - protects fawns from predation.
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I absolutely agree. I'm only pointing out this trend in deer management that is meant to avoid whatever they call a "doe factory." It seems like what they're doing is building a hunting ground for coyotes with those practices.

Whitetail habitat solution website defines it as follows:

Doe Factory Habitat Definition:

The risk of creating an overabundance of Summer fawning cover. Herd building through antlerless deer expansion. Habitat conducive to rapid population expansion through extremely high levels of Summer fawning conditions.

Doe Factory Habitat Problems

Too much of a good thing is a bad thing, when it comes to whitetail management and one of the greatest risks is in creating doe factory habitat.
www.whitetailhabitatsolutions.com www.whitetailhabitatsolutions.com

That just a quick one I grabbed, but when I got my property most the research I found was telling me to reduce summer cover/food, which is why I ignored it and went my own way. The group I named refers to this "doe habitat" as an "infection" to the property: "

Are you infected with doe factory habitat?

"

A lot of these deer influencers are saying if you don't remedy the problem you won't have any quality bucks.
 
BSK said:
Here's an odd question: I've always heard (and seen in trail-camera data) that coyotes are major predators of fox. And usually, your fox population is an indicator of your coyote population, as in lots of coyotes means few foxes. Lots of foxes means few coyote. However, over the last couple of years, my local fox population has been exploding, even though my coyote population appears stable or even rising. I get a LOT of coyotes on trail-cam. Yet at the same time, I'm now getting entire families of foxes on cam, and I mean ever single night.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
We have hardly any foxes, though many yotes and bobcats. Probably have had 2 pics of foxes ever. Similarly to what you mentioned, many trappers use fox urine as an attractant, as a coyote is inclined to investigate fox scent due to them competing for resources.
 
lol said:
I absolutely agree. I'm only pointing out this trend in deer management that is meant to avoid whatever they call a "doe factory." It seems like what they're doing is building a hunting ground for coyotes with those practices.

Whitetail habitat solution website defines it as follows:

Doe Factory Habitat Definition:

The risk of creating an overabundance of Summer fawning cover. Herd building through antlerless deer expansion. Habitat conducive to rapid population expansion through extremely high levels of Summer fawning conditions.

Doe Factory Habitat Problems

Too much of a good thing is a bad thing, when it comes to whitetail management and one of the greatest risks is in creating doe factory habitat.
www.whitetailhabitatsolutions.com www.whitetailhabitatsolutions.com

That just a quick one I grabbed, but when I got my property most the research I found was telling me to reduce summer cover/food, which is why I ignored it and went my own way. The group I named refers to this "doe habitat" as an "infection" to the property: "

Are you infected with doe factory habitat?

"

A lot of these deer influencers are saying if you don't remedy the problem you won't have any quality bucks.
Click to expand...
The single greatest correlating factor to growing big bucks is weight of harvested adult does (2.5 and older). Once you get your local does to average 120lbs, that essentially translates to average harvested mature bucks of 139 inches.

If you are producing so many does they are competing for the very best foods, and you are not increasing average body weight of does, you have a huge problem. But it's easy to fix. Just kill a bunch of does.

The only time in TN you want to reduce fawning cover and degrade habitat is if you are focused on the velvet hunt. Does get the best habitat all summer long, and if that is your place, the bachelor groups will be elsewhere. But during the rut, the bucks are going where there is COVER, DOES, and FOOD. During hunting season but outside the rut, bucks focus on SECLUSION (from hunters and other deer).
 
megalomaniac said:
The single greatest correlating factor to growing big bucks is weight of harvested adult does (2.5 and older). Once you get your local does to average 120lbs, that essentially translates to average harvested mature bucks of 139 inches.

If you are producing so many does they are competing for the very best foods, and you are not increasing average body weight of does, you have a huge problem. But it's easy to fix. Just kill a bunch of does.

The only time in TN you want to reduce fawning cover and degrade habitat is if you are focused on the velvet hunt. Does get the best habitat all summer long, and if that is your place, the bachelor groups will be elsewhere. But during the rut, the bucks are going where there is COVER, DOES, and FOOD. During hunting season but outside the rut, bucks focus on SECLUSION (from hunters and other deer).
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I've argued the same point on FB in habitat groups. I think the practices being pushed to avoid does are harmful in many areas, especially around the mountains where deer density is suffering.
 
lol said:
I absolutely agree. I'm only pointing out this trend in deer management that is meant to avoid whatever they call a "doe factory." It seems like what they're doing is building a hunting ground for coyotes with those practices.

Whitetail habitat solution website defines it as follows:

Doe Factory Habitat Definition:

The risk of creating an overabundance of Summer fawning cover. Herd building through antlerless deer expansion. Habitat conducive to rapid population expansion through extremely high levels of Summer fawning conditions.

Doe Factory Habitat Problems

Too much of a good thing is a bad thing, when it comes to whitetail management and one of the greatest risks is in creating doe factory habitat.
www.whitetailhabitatsolutions.com www.whitetailhabitatsolutions.com

That just a quick one I grabbed, but when I got my property most the research I found was telling me to reduce summer cover/food, which is why I ignored it and went my own way. The group I named refers to this "doe habitat" as an "infection" to the property: "

Are you infected with doe factory habitat?

"

A lot of these deer influencers are saying if you don't remedy the problem you won't have any quality bucks.
Click to expand...

The way I see it is if you've got a spot where does feel comfortable to raise fawns, then every other deer will feel comfortable there too. And since every other fawn born will be a buck, it would seem counterproductive to discourage pregnant does from living on your ground. Sometimes we lose the forest through the trees and this is one of those times. KISS applies as well to deer habitat as it does anywhere. No need to over complicate it.
 

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