Crossing the Campbell County Line . . . . .

[TheLBLman]

And, before anyone jumps, I'm NOT advocating that TN mirror their season after KY.

x 2

IMO, we have it pretty good here. We have a long season that gives us the opportunity to get out even with life's other issues, and an increasing number of "nice" deer to hunt. It is a pretty good deal right now.

I agree.
But nothing wrong with a little "proactive" thought as to why such a disparity in larger antlered bucks,
say in the case of Whitley vs. Campbell?

A 5 y/o is just as hard to kill regardless of score.

That's about the only thing you've stated with which I can totally agree. :mrgreen:
Just "ribbing" you a little, don't take me too seriously. Actually appreciate the good-natured dialogue.
But that said, cannot agree with most of your assumptions posted thus far.

 

[AXL78]

Using this example, average antler score per age class should be the same. Would it be????

 

[TheLBLman]

Using this example, average antler score per age class should be the same. Would it be????

No. It would be not.

At least this is part of my "theory".

I believe (regardless of underlying reasons) that hunters' antler high-grading of the most "top-end" largest antlered bucks in the younger ages classes exists at a much higher level in Campbell Co., TN than it exists in Whitley Co., KY.

What I'm saying is that in Campbell Co., even if we had exactly the same number of bucks of all ages classes, more of those 2 1/2's & 3 1/2's with "above average" antlers are getting killed by hunters, than are comparatively in Whitley Co. More of the Campbell County survivors into the next ages classes tend to be more mainly those below average antlered bucks.

We could end up with exactly as many fully mature bucks in each county, but those surviving in Whitley would on average be carrying much larger antlers, not because of any genetic differences, not because of any soil differences, but rather because those particular bucks survived at a higher rate in Whitely than they did in Campbell. I currently have no reason to believe that the male fawns born in either county have any differences in genetic potential for large antlers. The issue may become which particular bucks of any year's age cohort survive to the next year, and there may be a very significant difference is THIS between these two counties.

However, I doubt there are as many bucks surviving to full maturity in Campbell Co., thus the average "age" of the living bucks is likely one of the factors in this disparity. That said, it's entirely possible there are more older bucks living in Campbell County, but more a case of those survivors tending to be small antlered, contributing to many hunters having no desire to kill them when they were 1 1/2, 2 1/2, or 3 1/2.

I cannot yet rule out the possibility that the most significant single factor in THIS disparity (Campbell vs. Whitley) may in fact be something as simple as hunter "mindset".

We now go back to what comes first, the chicken or the egg.

 

[AXL78]

I'm not taking any of it too seriously, I enjoy the debate sometimes. I never have and never will probably go around this area.

If the average score per age class across the state line is that much better, with all else being equal-that includes kills, density, etc. What besides soil could it be. Are the deer easier to kill. I don't buy pressure in this situation. Nothing points toward pressure to me. Most people run cameras, bow hunt, scout, and screw their area up one way or the other anyway. Heck, if this area in TN is just as "capable" of growing them as Kentucky across the state line, then why do none of their prime deer achieve that status. I also am not buying they don't exist. The harvest pressure is just the same across the line. 15 entries for one county is quite a few.

I just read your above post and want to refute how many survive to older age class-just as many are killed in TN. Unless the numbers can be broken out into age classes-then one has to assume similar harvest structure. All other factors are the same. The percentage difference in antler score - that could be high grading-but this is getting absurd- to such a large scale it affects the gene pool.

 

[TheLBLman]

I believe you're missing the key points of much of what I just posted above, and muddying the waters with things that don't matter.
And no, nothing I've said should necessarily have much effect on the "gene pool", at least regarding the antler genetics of future bucks born, and absolutely zero on those currently living. Hunters' antler high grading is not a genetic issue, nor should it necessarily lead to one.

To sort thru some of this, let's just assume there's zero difference in the "gene pools" of these two counties (Whitley & Campbell), and try to focus the "discussion" on just what is different between just these two. And unless evidence to contrary presents, assume there is zero difference between their soils.

 

[poorhunter]

Sure seems like a quandary doesn't it? Two neighboring counties with such a large difference in the number of large bucks, th8se two counties having virtually everthing the same as far as food cover water. that same Kentucky county killing more BC bucks than the whole of West Tennessee.? How can this be possible? To some it boils down to nutrients in the soil above any and everything else? I'm no soil scientist , but how CAN it possibly be soil? More in one county in Kentucky than the "best" Tennessee can offer? This is my OPINION, but I think there is no way it's soils. I don't know how long KY has had 1 buck limit and short season, but how can this NOT be the main reason? Tennessee has had high limits and long seasons for a long long time. Long range and accurate weapons from first week of November til into January...how does this not factor in? Yes, those two counties killed same number of bucks, but in Tennessee it's very hard for a deer to make it to 4.5. As someone pointed out earlier, we're talking about 16 deer out of maybe 20000. The 16 to 1 is a huge difference, but 16 out of 20000 is even bigger. The mindset is more of a factor than I used to think. By that I mean that deer hunters are hunters and hunters like pulling the trigger. It's a whole lot easier to shoot the first deer with antlers knowing you can just shoot one or two more later. That mindset can change without a limit change IF the hunting population wants to only kill big antlers as the main reason for deer hunting in the first place. While I believe firmly that most every hunter wants to kill big bucks, so many of us are just deer hunters and killing big antlers just isn't as important as it is to some. I think most deer hunters fall into this category. Most would LIKE to be a trophy hunter, but just aren't. Now, change the limit and season then you are taking opportunity away from a lot of good people. I personally wouldn't want to change the limits or seasons, but I'm one of those who strictly hunts for meat. It's my choice and my family's choice of meat to eat. I don't want to take my neighbors big racked deer or next year's big racked deer, but since I just am not able to get a lot of time in the stand most anything that comes by I will shoot, buck or doe. I feel like I've moved off topic, so I apologize for that. Back to soils. I asked this question on another thread...If soils played that big of a role in antler development, then how is it that in any given deer herd the wide variety of antler sizes of same aged deer? Same age, same food, same soil etc, and very different antlers. If soil was that much of a factor then that variance wouldn't be so great. One thing that is the same across all deer herds is that older deer have bigger antlers than younger deer...if you want more deer with bigger antlers then you just simply need more older deer.

 

[AXL78]

I think I see your point, I really do, soil makes a lot more sense to me. I don't believe that high-grading on that scale exists-no. Epidemic proportions. That is saying that almost zero bucks with potential slip by and make it to an older age class, and the majority of them do in Kentucky-yet harvest pressure does not indicate that.

 

[AXL78]

Sure seems like a quandary doesn't it? Two neighboring counties with such a large difference in the number of large bucks, th8se two counties having virtually everthing the same as far as food cover water. that same Kentucky county killing more BC bucks than the whole of West Tennessee.? How can this be possible? To some it boils down to nutrients in the soil above any and everything else? I'm no soil scientist , but how CAN it possibly be soil? More in one county in Kentucky than the "best" Tennessee can offer? This is my OPINION, but I think there is no way it's soils. I don't know how long KY has had 1 buck limit and short season, but how can this NOT be the main reason? Tennessee has had high limits and long seasons for a long long time. Long range and accurate weapons from first week of November til into January...how does this not factor in? Yes, those two counties killed same number of bucks, but in Tennessee it's very hard for a deer to make it to 4.5. As someone pointed out earlier, we're talking about 16 deer out of maybe 20000. The 16 to 1 is a huge difference, but 16 out of 20000 is even bigger. The mindset is more of a factor than I used to think. By that I mean that deer hunters are hunters and hunters like pulling the trigger. It's a whole lot easier to shoot the first deer with antlers knowing you can just shoot one or two more later. That mindset can change without a limit change IF the hunting population wants to only kill big antlers as the main reason for deer hunting in the first place. While I believe firmly that most every hunter wants to kill big bucks, so many of us are just deer hunters and killing big antlers just isn't as important as it is to some. I think most deer hunters fall into this category. Most would LIKE to be a trophy hunter, but just aren't. Now, change the limit and season then you are taking opportunity away from a lot of good people. I personally wouldn't want to change the limits or seasons, but I'm one of those who strictly hunts for meat. It's my choice and my family's choice of meat to eat. I don't want to take my neighbors big racked deer or next year's big racked deer, but since I just am not able to get a lot of time in the stand most anything that comes by I will shoot, buck or doe. I feel like I've moved off topic, so I apologize for that. Back to soils. I asked this question on another thread...If soils played that big of a role in antler development, then how is it that in any given deer herd the wide variety of antler sizes of same aged deer? Same age, same food, same soil etc, and very different antlers. If soil was that much of a factor then that variance wouldn't be so great. One thing that is the same across all deer herds is that older deer have bigger antlers than younger deer...if you want more deer with bigger antlers then you just simply need more older deer.

Poorhunter, I think the question here is this: Why do the older deer in Whitney, KY have larger antlers than the older deer in Campbell, TN?

 

[AXL78]

I believe you're missing the key points of much of what I just posted above, and muddying the waters with things that don't matter.
And no, nothing I've said should necessarily have much effect on the "gene pool", at least regarding the antler genetics of future bucks born, and absolutely zero on those currently living. Hunters' antler high grading is not a genetic issue, nor should it necessarily lead to one.

To sort thru some of this, let's just assume there's zero difference in the "gene pools" of these two counties (Whitley & Campbell), and try to focus the "discussion" on just what is different between just these two. And unless evidence to contrary presents, assume there is zero difference between their soils.

K, and I will go with hunter mindset to a point of realism. It wouldn't inflate the number to tune of 1:15.

 

[scn]

Sure seems like a quandary doesn't it? Two neighboring counties with such a large difference in the number of large bucks, th8se two counties having virtually everthing the same as far as food cover water. that same Kentucky county killing more BC bucks than the whole of West Tennessee.? How can this be possible? To some it boils down to nutrients in the soil above any and everything else? I'm no soil scientist , but how CAN it possibly be soil? More in one county in Kentucky than the "best" Tennessee can offer? This is my OPINION, but I think there is no way it's soils. I don't know how long KY has had 1 buck limit and short season, but how can this NOT be the main reason? Tennessee has had high limits and long seasons for a long long time. Long range and accurate weapons from first week of November til into January...how does this not factor in? Yes, those two counties killed same number of bucks, but in Tennessee it's very hard for a deer to make it to 4.5. As someone pointed out earlier, we're talking about 16 deer out of maybe 20000. The 16 to 1 is a huge difference, but 16 out of 20000 is even bigger. The mindset is more of a factor than I used to think. By that I mean that deer hunters are hunters and hunters like pulling the trigger. It's a whole lot easier to shoot the first deer with antlers knowing you can just shoot one or two more later. That mindset can change without a limit change IF the hunting population wants to only kill big antlers as the main reason for deer hunting in the first place. While I believe firmly that most every hunter wants to kill big bucks, so many of us are just deer hunters and killing big antlers just isn't as important as it is to some. I think most deer hunters fall into this category. Most would LIKE to be a trophy hunter, but just aren't. Now, change the limit and season then you are taking opportunity away from a lot of good people. I personally wouldn't want to change the limits or seasons, but I'm one of those who strictly hunts for meat. It's my choice and my family's choice of meat to eat. I don't want to take my neighbors big racked deer or next year's big racked deer, but since I just am not able to get a lot of time in the stand most anything that comes by I will shoot, buck or doe. I feel like I've moved off topic, so I apologize for that. Back to soils. I asked this question on another thread...If soils played that big of a role in antler development, then how is it that in any given deer herd the wide variety of antler sizes of same aged deer? Same age, same food, same soil etc, and very different antlers. If soil was that much of a factor then that variance wouldn't be so great. One thing that is the same across all deer herds is that older deer have bigger antlers than younger deer...if you want more deer with bigger antlers then you just simply need more older deer.

The answer to your question on differences in antlers is actually very simple and has been scientifically validated for decades. It deals in genetic variability. Basically, in any population, when you graph the size differences, you will come up with a bell shaped curve. The average will be at the center of the curve.

An example you might understand is plotting the average height of adult males in the US. I have no idea what it actually is, but for illustation let's say the average is 5'11". On the far left hand side of the graph, you would see heights less than 4' representing the smallest members of the population. On the far right hand side of the graph you will see the 7'+ giants. But, your average size will be at the center of the bell shaped curve.

Good soils will not normally change the shape of the bell curve. But, it very likely will mean that the average size is much higher, and those on the far right are bigger as well. There is no doubt that good soil affects the number of deer reaching the B&C minimum score.

 

[TheLBLman]

That mindset can change without a limit change IF the hunting population wants to only kill big antlers as the main reason for deer hunting in the first place.

I believe we can "change our minds" regarding WHICH bucks we prefer to shoot WITHOUT "only killing big antlers" as the main reason for our deer hunting. Most of us hunt for MANY reasons, and not just any one reason. But if MOST of us do prefer killing bucks with larger antlers rather than smaller antlers (and ALL EVIDENCE points to this), even just a relatively small (but voluntary) "mental" adjustment regarding what we kill COULD make a significant cumulative difference over just a few years?

Part of such a mindset change would have little to do with "larger" antlers.
What about coming to see the value of an overall "healthier" deer herd, which could be enhanced by nothing more than a more "balanced sex" deer harvest? This might mean little more than killing slightly fewer bucks and slightly fewer does. It might mean little more than the more avid hunters who have developed good hunting skills to just decide against their shooting yearling and 2 1/2-yr-old bucks (no matter what the antlers on those young bucks). Regarding "which" bucks, notice I'm talking purely voluntarily, and assuming "any" antlered buck would be legal game (just like it is currently in both TN & KY).

 

[TheLBLman]

EXCELLENT!

The answer to your question on differences in antlers is actually very simple and has been scientifically validated for decades. It deals in genetic variability. Basically, in any population, when you graph the size differences, you will come up with a bell shaped curve. The average will be at the center of the curve.

An example you might understand is plotting the average height of adult males in the US. I have no idea what it actually is, but for illustation let's say the average is 5'11". On the far left hand side of the graph, you would see heights less than 4' representing the smallest members of the population. On the far right hand side of the graph you will see the 7'+ giants. But, your average size will be at the center of the bell shaped curve.

Now to grasp a better idea of how hunters' antler high-grading works . . . . . .

Imagine if an evil dictator decided to kill all the juvenile male humans who were over 5 feet tall. There might still be a few to escape the "targeted" slaughter. There might still be a lot of human males living to be very old in that area. But in a neighboring more civilized place not being subject to this "high-grading" of the taller young males, the average adult male would be much taller, and it would have little if anything to do with genetics.

Back to bucks, if in one county the 8-point or greater 2 1/2's & 3 1/2's are killed at a much higher rate than they are in the other county, there will be a huge difference in the average antler size of those bucks surviving to 4 1/2 and older one county vs. the other. This would be the case even if more bucks lived to be 5 1/2 in the county with more antler high-grading of the young bucks, as it would still have mainly smaller-antlered mature bucks, while the county with less antler high-grading would have mature bucks with antlers more representative of that bell curve of their collective antler genetics at birth.

Understanding hunter antler-high grading can be as simple as understanding it's nothing more than hunters selectively killing more of the young bucks with larger antlers (often allowing more of those with smaller antlers to survive to 4 1/2 and older). Just saying this "appears" to be happening to a greater extent in Campbell County than in Whitley.

 

[AXL78]

In analyzing these 2 counties, I can conclude that there is most likely no one factor responsible. The largest contributing factor, in my mind, may be soil. I do think there is plausible evidence to suggest it. Whether it is right or wrong isn't all that important to me. Either way, that county in KY must be a good, 15 entries from 1 county means they can grow em if they can get em old enough. I'm assuming these are 170 net, or are these state minimum entries.

 

[Roost 1]

Could it be that the excessive amount of hunting pressure might cause excessive stress which could be detrimental to antler growth.
Could it be possible that some older Campbell Co bucks might find sanctuary in Whitley Co due to less hunting pressure? I know these ideals may sound far fetched but in reality a booner could live his life in Campbell Co but find sanctuary a few miles away in KY and end up getting killed there..This scenario could play out in several of the border counties across the whole state..

 

[TheLBLman]

The largest contributing factor, in my mind, may be soil. I do think there is plausible evidence to suggest it.

If you or anyone can find any plausible evidence, please present it. So far, I've seen none. Again, just comparing these 2 counties where I believe soil differences have been ruled out as a major factor.

 

[TheLBLman]

Could it be that the excessive amount of hunting pressure might cause excessive stress which could be detrimental to antler growth.
Could it be possible that some older Campbell Co bucks might find sanctuary in Whitley Co due to less hunting pressure? I know these ideals may sound far fetched but in reality a booner could live his life in Campbell Co but find sanctuary a few miles away in KY and end up getting killed there..This scenario could play out in several of the border counties across the whole state..

Roost, I think everything you just pointed out are contributing factors to that disparity between Campbell and Whitley.
I kinda think each is only a very small factor, but at some point we'll have a list of many small factors that add up to "a" large difference. And many of these factors COULD be voluntarily implemented by hunters without there being any changes in "regulations". Awareness becomes the first step.

 

[AT Hiker]

Just about everything seems to be covered with one exception, baiting. Its legal in KY (part of the year) and illegal in TN. Does this make a difference? Doubt it, unless a very large group of KY hunters are really dumping out the protein to their herds (sarcasm).

Question, does B&C accept deer killed over bait (per the states definition or even their own).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[AXL78]

The largest contributing factor, in my mind, may be soil. I do think there is plausible evidence to suggest it.

If you or anyone can find any plausible evidence, please present it. So far, I've seen none. Again, just comparing these 2 counties where I believe soil differences have been ruled out as a major factor.

I'm not going to start a big debate. I'm just saying, harvest pressure equal, deer density equal, agricultural similarities, everything similar basically. The only difference in the 2 counties is the score of the antlers on the older age bucks is larger in KY than TN, and TN has more opportunity to kill one. TN isn't killing anymore or less antlered or antlerless. I mean all things equal, there is an environmental factor that has to be "considered." Don't know if it is right, but soil and it's role in antler development is not completely understood and should not be discarded. I wouldn't lead a team of scientists away from it if I'm unbiased. Could it be wrong-yes, but what is a more logical explanation - mindset, high-grading. People would more than likely high-grade in one buck situation. Not all of KY is holding out for a 4.5 or larger. If they take x amount of bucks and TN takes x amount of bucks, and x=x, then the same number should of bucks should get old in TN as in KY. Now I know that isn't exactly the case, but the number of older deer killed in whatever county, KY isn't proportionate to the number of older deer killed in Campbell, TN at a ratio of 15:1.

 

[TheLBLman]

Just about everything seems to be covered with one exception, baiting. Its legal in KY . . . . .

Good catch! That is something of genuine difference between these two counties.
I really don't have much idea as to how this might effect that harvest disparity between these two counties.
Shooting deer over bait certainly can make it easier to kill younger deer, but that's not necessarily the case with older deer.
It also wouldn't surprise me if there's not almost as much illegal baiting happening in Campbell County as legal baiting happening in Whitley.

I don't know if this is still the case, but B&C in the past did not allow bucks killed over bait to be entered into their record book. No doubt, some people killed bucks over bait and lied on the avadavat.

 

[Roost 1]

Hunting pressure IS NOT equal, not even close..