Crossing the Campbell County Line . . . . .

[MUP]

Think this one has run it's course as well.

 

[AXL78]

Think this one has run it's course as well.

Heaven forbid.

Since his post yesterday I've checked this thread every half minute. I honestly want to see his thoughts on this. He may not post them, but don't lock it.

He doesn't know me, but I feel like I know him. I've been reading this place since around 2000 I think, and I really appreciate all he's done for this site. After a while I cancelled all magazine subscriptions. Ha. It's not as informative without him. People have become accustomed to posting their thoughts too freely without fear of "official" discredit. That's why I joined. Lol. He always had a way of disagreeing and teaching without insulting, and I appreciated that.

 

[Biggun4214]

As far as B&C deer how does Oak Ridge compare to Whitley County? Doesn't border Whitley Co but is not that far away and has been managed since the mid 80's.

 

[TheLBLman]

As far as B&C deer how does Oak Ridge compare to Whitley County? Doesn't border Whitley Co but is not that far away and has been managed since the mid 80's.

EXCELLENT point, Biggun4214!

I'm not sure (saying I don't know) just how valid this comparison, especially considering Oak Ridge WMA is in Anderson & Roane counties, quite a good crow's fly from the TN-KY line. Again, I highlighted Campbell County, TN mainly because of its proximity and its seemly to be so similar in all respects to Whitley Co., KY.

Whitley County, KY is a land mass of about 285,000 acres.
If we consider the number of B&C entries (over the years) per thousand acres, we come up with a number in the ballpark of 1 per 17,800 acres. Again, this is not annually, but since records have been kept, and I assume some of those Whitley Co. entries pre-date Oak Ridge WMA's (legal) deer hunting which began about 1986.

Oak Ridge WMA has a land mass of about 37,000 acres.
I don't know if there's even been a single B&C buck taken there, or not.
BUT, to match what we see coming out of Whitley County, KY there would need to be only 2 total over time.

Making a similar land mass comparison for Campbell Co., TN . . . . . .
Campbell Co. has a land mass of about 319,000 acres.
If we consider the number of B&C entries (over the years) per thousand acres, we come up with a number of 1 per 319,000 acres?

I do agree, of all the WMA's in the "general" area near Campbell County, Oak Ridge WMA would be the very best to get some idea of the area's "potential" in producing larger antlered bucks.

That said, the circumstances being what they are, may still be somewhat comparing an apple to an orange. Despite Oak Ridge WMA being 37,000 acres, it is still somewhat fragmented, with many areas of very heavy "statewide" deer hunting around its boundaries. Also, many of the properties bordering OR are very small, providing quite a bit of opportunity for a large amount of hunting pressure, as well as trespassing poachers, to hunt that perimeter. Not only does TN's "statewide" (around that perimeter) gun season run over twice if not three time more days than Whitley County's, but for much of this time period that perimeter buck limit was 3 or greater. During the rut, wouldn't we expect most of the bucks using the Oak Ridge WMA to wander beyond the WMA's perimeter boundaries?

Also, even though the OR WMA has hunting limited to only 2 or 3 annual quota hunts, the number of hunters per acre has been very high, and it's possible (on a per square mile basis) that OR WMA has received more annual hunting pressure than Whitley Co., KY.

Speaking of Roane County, which is not known for any great soil, not known for having much acreage in corn & soybeans, Tennessee's current Top Typical Whitetail buck did come from Roane County. Just an interesting tidbit. For all I know, that buck may have been born on the land that is now the Oak Ridge WMA.

 

[Biggun4214]

As far as B&C deer how does Oak Ridge compare to Whitley County? Doesn't border Whitley Co but is not that far away and has been managed since the mid 80's.

EXCELLENT point, Biggun4214!

I'm not sure (saying I don't know) just how valid this comparison, especially considering Oak Ridge WMA is in Anderson & Roane counties, quite a good crow's fly from the TN-KY line. Again, I highlighted Campbell County, TN mainly because of its proximity and its seemly to be so similar in all respects to Whitley Co., KY.

Whitley County, KY is a land mass of about 285,000 acres.
If we consider the number of B&C entries (over the years) per thousand acres, we come up with a number in the ballpark of 1 per 17,800 acres. Again, this is not annually, but since records have been kept, and I assume some of those Whitley Co. entries pre-date Oak Ridge WMA's (legal) deer hunting which began about 1986.

Oak Ridge WMA has a land mass of about 37,000 acres.
I don't know if there's even been a single B&C buck taken there, or not.
BUT, to match what we see coming out of Whitley County, KY there would need to be only 2 total over time.

Making a similar land mass comparison for Campbell Co., TN . . . . . .
Campbell Co. has a land mass of about 319,000 acres.
If we consider the number of B&C entries (over the years) per thousand acres, we come up with a number of 1 per 319,000 acres?

I do agree, of all the WMA's in the "general" area near Campbell County, Oak Ridge WMA would be the very best to get some idea of the area's "potential" in producing larger antlered bucks.

That said, the circumstances being what they are, may still be somewhat comparing an apple to an orange. Despite Oak Ridge WMA being 37,000 acres, it is still somewhat fragmented, with many areas of very heavy "statewide" deer hunting around its boundaries. Also, many of the properties bordering OR are very small, providing quite a bit of opportunity for a large amount of hunting pressure, as well as trespassing poachers, to hunt that perimeter. Not only does TN's "statewide" (around that perimeter) gun season run over twice if not three time more days than Whitley County's, but for much of this time period that perimeter buck limit was 3 or greater. During the rut, wouldn't we expect most of the bucks using the Oak Ridge WMA to wander beyond the WMA's perimeter boundaries?

Also, even though the OR WMA has hunting limited to only 2 or 3 annual quota hunts, the number of hunters per acre has been very high, and it's possible (on a per square mile basis) that OR WMA has received more annual hunting pressure than Whitley Co., KY.

Speaking of Roane County, which is not known for any great soil, not known for having much acreage in corn & soybeans, Tennessee's current Top Typical Whitetail buck did come from Roane County. Just an interesting tidbit. For all I know, that buck may have been born on the land that is now the Oak Ridge WMA.

I wasn't trying to compare size between the 2 just chose Oak Ridge because of proximity to Campbell County. With the number of hunts and hunter quota, lots of mature deer exist there. Even with the open hunting around the borders of the area.

 

[TheLBLman]

I wasn't trying to compare size between the 2 just chose Oak Ridge because of proximity to Campbell County. With the number of hunts and hunter quota, lots of mature deer exist there. Even with the open hunting around the borders of the area.

I agree, at least RELATIVE to other TN WMAs (and counties), a lot more mature bucks exist within the Oak Ridge WMA.

Still noteworthy that it only takes 2 B&C bucks to be reported from the Oak Ridge WMA (since its inception) to be "comparable" to the number of B&C bucks coming out of Whitley Co., KY (per acre). It may be the current Oak Ridge dataset is just too small to be of much significant comparison?

But if we assume Oak Ridge SHOULD have a better showing than it appears to have (regarding a B&C entry or two), why doesn't it?

Meanwhile, the bigger question I have remains, why doesn't Campbell County, TN have a better showing (compared to Whitley)?

 

[TheLBLman]

Since Biggun brought up making a bit of a comparison to the Oak Ridge WMA, I'll interject another WMA comparison, although it's even farther removed from Campbell Co., TN.

Much farther west, but also right there on the TN-KY line, we have Henry County, TN containing a whopping 380,000 acres.
Henry has been one of TN's best all-time deer-producing counties, and has more row-crop agriculture (particularly corn & soybeans) than most TN counties. Surprisingly, it has never made many entries into the B&C book. Actually, that may not be surprising, but what is surprising, is how many entries have come from the adjoining TN county to it's east (Stewart), and most particularly, the Tennessee portion of the Land Between the Lakes WMA. Just that "little" TN portion of LBL has produced more B&C bucks than all of Henry County. How could that be?

For the purpose of this discussion thread, my main interest is in eliminating soil as a primary factor (between Campbell vs. Whitley). I am otherwise agreeing with many that soil is commonly a big factor in many areas. However, it "appears" that LBL has soil, at best, no better than Henry County. Then for certain, a relative tiny portion of LBL is in corn & soybean production, compared to a very large portion of Henry County being in "deer food" ag crops. As in the case of Campbell vs. Whitley, it appears that with Henry vs. LBL, the soil is not the big factor.

The TN portion of LBL is about twice the size of the Oak Ridge WMA.
Like Oak Ridge, it has limited gun hunting, that only by quota draw hunt. However, the hunter density on the LBL draws is much fewer hunters per acre. And, it would appear the hunting around the perimeter of LBL is not as great as what's occurring around the perimeter of Oak Ridge. I also believe the illegal poaching around that perimeter and within, is likely less at LBL. Last but not least, and I believe these two factors are POSSIBLY really BIG ones: I believe there is significantly less hunter antler high-grading within LBL, and the "mindset" of LBL hunters tends to be very different than they typical Campbell County, TN hunter (and/or those who would commonly hunt the Oak Ridge WMA). That last statement was not meant in any derogatory way, just an observation.

The LBL WMA might have a regulatory and overall hunting environment more like what is found in Whitley Co., KY (than does the Oak Ridge WMA). I'm not taking the time now to look up all the details, but I believe the TN portion of LBL is approaching B&C entries (per square mile) comparable to Whitley Co., KY.

This adds to my belief that hunting regulations CAN be a more important factor than the soil.

 

[Winchester]

I wasn't trying to compare size between the 2 just chose Oak Ridge because of proximity to Campbell County. With the number of hunts and hunter quota, lots of mature deer exist there. Even with the open hunting around the borders of the area.

I agree, at least RELATIVE to other TN WMAs (and counties), a lot more mature bucks exist within the Oak Ridge WMA.

Still noteworthy that it only takes 2 B&C bucks to be reported from the Oak Ridge WMA (since its inception) to be "comparable" to the number of B&C bucks coming out of Whitley Co., KY (per acre). It may be the current Oak Ridge dataset is just too small to be of much significant comparison?

But if we assume Oak Ridge SHOULD have a better showing than it appears to have (regarding a B&C entry or two), why doesn't it?

Meanwhile, the bigger question I have remains, why doesn't Campbell County, TN have a better showing (compared to Whitley)?

I'm glad ORWMA was brought up and it should prove a point here to those who think TN will EVER have the #'s of truly huge (B&C) bucks walking the woods.
I happen to live 2 miles from ORWMA and have followed its hunting since it began back in 1985. This area of roughly 40,000 acres (smaller now as many areas have been removed over the years for so called security reasons) had not been legally hunted for over 40 yrs and much of it was actually under patrol of DOE guards for most of that time. I'm sure a few deer were poached but not enough to even mention.
Ok we have 40k acres that has not been hunted for 40 yrs with protection of DOE, some even fenced in that is now hunted. The Gene pool there is touted as being some of the very best by former wildlife office who ran it from inception for decades. All this said I'm sure we agree that if this area of TN had the ability to grow B&C bucks in any quantity at all, outside a true fluke, at least one would be killed there once hunting started. I thought so too, but exactly ZERO have been killed there in 30 years of hunting now, and the hunting has been managed on a #'s scale meaning only a few wknds a year of drawn hunting is allowed with much of it being archery only, and only shotgun/MZ has ever been allowed on gun areas.
I think this is a pretty good indicator of what this area of TN is capable of producing for top end bucks on a regular basis where there is NO hunting allowed for decades. There were tons of great bucks killed, lots over 150 and many over 160 with a few even grossing Boone but never netting enough to make entry.
Hoping that TN will ever be a player in the B&C book for #'s of entries is a pipe dream!
KY obviously has something that TN does not???

 

[TheLBLman]

I'm glad ORWMA was brought up and it should prove a point here to those who think TN will EVER have the #'s of truly huge (B&C) bucks walking the woods.

Hoping that TN will ever be a player in the B&C book for #'s of entries is a pipe dream!

I don't know what you're smokin' in your pipe, but there never was many TN hunters thinking or expecting TN would ever match KY on B&C entries, period, much less by simply going from a 3 to a 2-buck limit (if that's what you're implying many hunters were thinking).

MOST correctly saw TN's buck limit change as nothing more than a "carburetor" adjustment to the deer regs. Heck, most didn't even care one way or the other, never mind this change was mainly about helping to facilitate minor (but annually cumulative) improvements in herd health and hunter success. There was no change in season segments, and TN hunters continue to enjoy one of the longest gun deer hunting season segments of any state any where. Really, not much changed last year for most TN deer hunters, other than their collective success actually increased a little?

I think this is a pretty good indicator of what this area (Oak Ridge WMA) of TN is capable of producing for top end bucks on a regular basis where there is NO hunting allowed for decades.

I don't think the history of Oak Ridge WMA necessarily indicates this at all.
Why was the public DEMANDING that something be done about that overpopulated deer herd that had been spiraling out of control for years before the feds finally agreed to start allowing hunting to reduce that deer herd back to some reasonable numbers? By the time of that first Oak Ridge WMA deer hunt in 1986 (by the way, I was there), that deer herd was SEVERLY overpopulated and by no means should anyone have expected any B&C bucks to exist there. Yes, lots of old bucks, but they were working very hard to find something to eat. I suspect if that hunt had occurred several years earlier, there MIGHT have been a couple Booners taken.

Meanwhile, even today, many people still believe the Oak Ridge WMA has way too many deer (especially for mostly hardwood habitat).

Again, Oak Ridge WMA remains a relatively small data set to compare against Whitley County, KY if it would only take two (2) B&C entries to match the rate that has occurred in Whitley. It only takes one (1) to exceed the entirety of Campbell County, TN (occurrences per square miles).

As an aside, I don't think I've ever hunted a woodland deer stand since my first hunt at Oak Ridge WMA in 1986 where I actually saw over 50 deer in one day from a single stand with my visibility limited to about 40 yards.

The Gene pool there is touted as being some of the very best by former wildlife office who ran it from inception for decades.

That may very well be. As has already been noted, Tennessee's #1 B&C buck did in fact come from Roane County, the same county that much of the Oak Ridge WMA sits. Considering TN has 95 counties, pretty remarkable. But no matter how good those genetics, give a buck poor nutrition, even if the soil is fantastic, he's not likely to grow extremely large top-end antlers.

 

[AXL78]

LBLMan, even though I was told not to get out of the parameters of the discussion, you have drifted all the way to LBL.

I am starting to believe that you are hand picking qualities for comparison and not looking at an area as a whole, or forcing your idea.

As for Oak Ridge's one needed entry for comparison purposes, there would have to be a minimum number of entries to qualify and not throw that stat out as an anomaly. Just like in sports, a person has to have a minimum number of plate appearances, passing attempts, 3 pt attempts, before that stat is relevant for comparison.

I will however let your research resume.

 

[AXL78]

.

 

[TheLBLman]

. . . . you have drifted all the way to LBL.

My bad.
I actually never intended to bring up anything about ANY WMA, much less LBL.
Like I've said, my main interest is in ruling out SOIL as a primary factor between Whitley and Campbell Counties.

I would love to hear more thoughts from hunters with a long history of hunting both Whitley and Campbell.

 

[PickettSFHunter]

Oak Ridge is a bad comparison considering the habitat. If that was private land or state forest it would be much better habitat. Now it's a few fields and big timber for the most part with very little food in the big timber. Plus it's quite fragmented and hunting is very limited. It is nice to see what some of those mature bucks develop into now even in that type of habitat though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Hoytem]

Not for sure if this is it but I think most of the sticking deer that to Campbell inthe 60&70s where from chuck swan and the deer the Whitley county got were received from Wisconsin
Maybe they won't crossbreed well.

 

[knightrider]

Not for sure if this is it but I think most of the sticking deer that to Campbell inthe 60&70s where from chuck swan and the deer the Whitley county got were received from Wisconsin
Maybe they won't crossbreed well.

chuck swan deer came from north Carolina,texas, and oklahoma

 

[TheLBLman]

At some point a few decades ago, it should have stopped mattering wherever the deer in either county originally came.

The deer in both counties should be one of the same.

 

[landman]

Sounds like KY Hunters are just Better Hunters

 

[AT Hiker]

Sounds like KY Hunters are just Better Hunters

Haha, you have a point.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[knightrider]

At some point a few decades ago, it should have stopped mattering wherever the deer in either county originally came.

The deer in both counties should be one of the same.

no it does still very much matter,and to say it doesn't is crazy

 

[TheLBLman]

Well, you can call me crazy, but I think it's a "crazy" thought for anyone to think there would now be any significant genetic difference concerning the deer found anywhere in Whitley or Campbell counties. There is no physical geographical or manmade barrier between these two counties, which are basically just one big land mass, separated into two tracts by an arbitrary line on a map.

Not saying there are no "differences" in herd health, age structure, sex ratios, etc., but no difference in genetic potential.