Crossing the Campbell County Line . . . . .

[AXL78]

We are under the assumption that the deer across the line from Campbell, TN have a higher score per age class.

I believe that's true only for the oldest age classes, i.e. less antler high-grading of the younger bucks in Whitley allows for more of their larger antlered young bucks to become older.

My presumption is that the 1 1/2-yr-old class of bucks in both counties have similar genetics and similar antlers at "that" age class. May be very similar at 2 1/2 as well, but then changes rapidly as the TN hunters then kill off a much higher percentage of their largest antlered 2 1/2's, than do their peers in KY.

Will add again, I believe more of the young KY bucks are surviving to full maturity, that's on top of more of those surviving KY bucks being larger antlered when they were youngsters. By contrast, it might even be almost a relative moot point how many of the TN bucks are living to full maturity, assuming they are much more heavily high-graded as youngsters.

I can agree with this somewhat. But for theory sake, if there's 500 bucks in each county and a random sampling of 100 make it to 5.5 I say zero difference in average scores.

With the same analogy above though, the number of bucks that reach 5.5 in TN would be like 50 VS 100 in KY of those 100 bucks, the law averages takes over. Therefore more bucks would reach that B&C status.

Everything similar, harvest pressure included. Now harvest pressure per age class is a guess. It would help a lot. But a 1:2 ratio could be believable.
We are talking about a ratio of 1:15.

 

[TheLBLman]

Come on BSK! Tell us what YOU think! :tu:
This would be such a wonderful time for you to come back!

Hey, even ole David J. still makes an occasional post! ain:

 

[Roost 1]

So it's obvious you don't think buck limits make a diff in a scenario where it 3TN vs 1KY, so since we are going back 30yrs how about 11TN vs 1KY OR 2KY.. I know we are looking at last yrs harvest numbers but just maybe like Wes said the compounding interest over many years has taken its toll on TN...
I'll say once again I'm surprised Whitley Co has killed 15 B&Cs but in all actuality I think the trends are showing more B&C bucks coming from east KY each year.. I think I know why...

 

[Roost 1]

Come on BSK! Tell us what YOU think! :tu:
This would be such a wonderful time for you to come back!

Hey, even ole David J. still makes an occasional post! ain:

I bet he's getting a kick reading what us armchair biologist are theorizing... Lol

 

[AXL78]

So it's obvious you don't think buck limits make a diff in a scenario where it 3TN vs 1KY, so since we are going back 30yrs how about 11TN vs 1KY OR 2KY.. I know we are looking at last yrs harvest numbers but just maybe like Wes said the compounding interest over many years has taken its toll on TN...
I'll say once again I'm surprised Whitley Co has killed 15 B&Cs but in all actuality I think the trends are showing more B&C bucks coming from east KY each year.. I think I know why...

No, not buck limits because buck harvest is the same, mindset could be affected, within reason, I'll concede that.

 

[TheLBLman]

I bet he's getting a kick reading what us armchair biologist are theorizing... Lol

You can bet he's reading it! :mrgreen:
Been hoping all this high-grade talk might bring him back out of the darkness.

I bet he's just been biting at his bits wanting to post something! :stir:
He'll probably release all his pent-up thoughts at this year's SEDGM.
Hunters' Antler High-Grading: Much More Prevalent Than Previously Thought
Ready to give that presentation, BSK?!? :tu:

 

[Roost 1]

I just looked up the B&C entries per county in KY it's odd how Whitley Co has so many compared to the counties in that region... Of the the 4 counties that touch Whitley one other gas 8 and the rest have 4 each.. Very interesting.
I also looked up some harvest info for TN, I believe it was 2013 Giles Co killed right at 3000 bucks, I can't see how the bucks get as big as they do down there.....I bet there is not a handful of Ky counties that kill 2000 bucks per year...

 

[deerchaser007]

I can tell ya what I think. After some research, I think it has to do with a more balanced total herd structure to the habitat of the county in ky(Whitley). With any management plan, one year data set will not get you your answers. It's the course over several years and several data sets. Campbell county has been relatively unchanged in harvest for 10+ years. Only harvesting roughly 20% to 25% of does in total harvest. The buck harvest is typical for the area, 50% + of total buck is yearling.This is causing severe over browse in a mostly closed habitat environment. Meaning, the herd is severely out of balance, to many mouths eating to much of the mostly hard mast foods. Individual deer cannot express their maximum potential due to this. Fawn recruitment is likely low due to this same issue.
Even though Whitley county ky the past few years has had a doe total harvest of 30%, you have to look at data from years prior. Ky data goes back to 2000. From 2000 to 2012 Whitley county maintained a doe harvest of 40%+ every year of the total harvest, most years near 50%. Creating a more balanced herd to the available habitat and allowing bucks to reach their full potential from available high nutrient plants that were more readily available.This, combined with low yearling harvest, successful early fawning from mid aged does, and lower stress added to the herd from long hunting seasons, provided ample opportunity for the total deer herd to thrive to the habitat.
Proof, prior to 2004 Whitley county only had 6 of the total 16 B&C entries in the book. I don't know what years those 6 were harvested prior to 2004, but could have likely fell in the years of 2000-2004. Nonetheless, 10 of 16 B&C bucks came 2004 to 2014 from what I see from available data. Enough to tell ya, that proper quality management of the total deer herd will increase scores of buck, cause they can reach their full potential. Even in a mostly closed canopy environment.

 

[AT Hiker]

...prior to 2004 Whitley county only had 6 of the total 16 B&C entries in the book. I don't know what years those 6 were harvested prior to 2004, but could have likely fell in the years of 2000-2004. Nonetheless, 10 of 16 B&C bucks came 2004 to 2014 from what I see from available data. Enough to tell ya, that proper quality management of the total deer herd will increase scores of buck, cause they can reach their full potential. Even in a mostly closed canopy environment.

Or the glaciers receded in 2003[emoji14]

Assuming your research is correct I think you might have cracked the code, sorta. I think most of us agreed that the management is different but want to pin it on something that we have no control over, something more complicated than what it really is when in reality its not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[deerchaser007]

I just looked up the B&C entries per county in KY it's odd how Whitley Co has so many compared to the counties in that region... Of the the 4 counties that touch Whitley one other gas 8 and the rest have 4 each.. Very interesting.
I also looked up some harvest info for TN, I believe it was 2013 Giles Co killed right at 3000 bucks, I can't see how the bucks get as big as they do down there.....I bet there is not a handful of Ky counties that kill 2000 bucks per year...

Not really a fair comparison between Wayne county TN to anything in central and east ky. Wayne county TN easily has 25-30 deer per sq mile, compared to most in eastern ky has 10 or less.
I also agree the counties around Whitley are lower. Which is unusual. Looks like they may be smaller in sq miles, but not much. McCreary is mostly national forest land, that's all I seen that stood out on map.

 

[deerchaser007]

Come on BSK! Tell us what YOU think! :tu:
This would be such a wonderful time for you to come back!

Hey, even ole David J. still makes an occasional post! ain:

I agree!

 

[tn24]

I just looked up the B&C entries per county in KY it's odd how Whitley Co has so many compared to the counties in that region... Of the the 4 counties that touch Whitley one other gas 8 and the rest have 4 each.. Very interesting.
I also looked up some harvest info for TN, I believe it was 2013 Giles Co killed right at 3000 bucks, I can't see how the bucks get as big as they do down there.....I bet there is not a handful of Ky counties that kill 2000 bucks per year...

I checked the numbers from 2000 to 2015 and no county in Kentucky had killed 2000 bucks in a season. Does Kentucky list their button bucks in the male deer count? I didn't see them listed.

 

[deerchaser007]

We are under the assumption that the deer across the line from Campbell, TN have a higher score per age class.

I believe that's true only for the oldest age classes, i.e. less antler high-grading of the younger bucks in Whitley allows for more of their larger antlered young bucks to become older.

My presumption is that the 1 1/2-yr-old class of bucks in both counties have similar genetics and similar antlers at "that" age class. May be very similar at 2 1/2 as well, but then changes rapidly as the TN hunters then kill off a much higher percentage of their largest antlered 2 1/2's, than do their peers in KY.

Will add again, I believe more of the young KY bucks are surviving to full maturity, that's on top of more of those surviving KY bucks being larger antlered when they were youngsters. By contrast, it might even be almost a relative moot point how many of the TN bucks are living to full maturity, assuming they are much more heavily high-graded as youngsters.

I can agree with this somewhat. But for theory sake, if there's 500 bucks in each county and a random sampling of 100 make it to 5.5 I say zero difference in average scores.

With the same analogy above though, the number of bucks that reach 5.5 in TN would be like 50 VS 100 in KY of those 100 bucks, the law averages takes over. Therefore more bucks would reach that B&C status with superior genetics (NFL STARS)

I would wager there would be 20 to 30 less score inches average between the TN and ky buck in those counties. For the reason I spoke of above.
And as LBL said, when you are harvesting 50%+ of your yearling bucks, you are likely high grading them at that age also. On a higher than normal average. Put this with very low browse, just average recruitment, along with ALOT of late born fawns in poor habitat, you gonna have a hard time getting mid age does to their best for fawning. A mature buck will never reach full potential cause the does will take best habitat, where ever that might be. In the ky county, it would be totally the opposite, high grading likely occurs in mid age bucks. Some of the same is starting in unit L counties, but is also even being seriously looked at in the far north in certain areas.

 

[TheLBLman]

A mature buck will never reach full potential cause the does will take best habitat, where ever that might be.

You have identified another "factor". :geek:
I'd further define that as generally the best fawning and forage habitat.

If adult buck:doe ratios are even slightly better in Whitley Co., KY vs. Campbell Co., TN ---- even if all other factors (mainly the food sources here) were identical ---- the older bucks in Whitley get to enjoy slightly more of those best food sources than their counterparts in Campbell. This alone could cause the average Whitley Co. buck to have a slightly larger rack than his cousins down South.

This is just another aspect of "herd health", and one of the reasons behind the importance of maintaining more natural buck:doe ratios.
EVERYTHING matters. Each "little" thing contributes to the outcomes.

Regarding reaching "potential", it's doubtful any deer in either Whitley or Campbell ever reach their "full" potential. We just don't have the soils here for that to happen.

Seriously, if we could add better soils, the outcomes would become better, assuming no other factors changed. What often changes with better soils is deer density also increases. Therefore even though there is more and better food sources available, with many more mouths to feed, what is available per deer is not necessarily greatly more than on a poorer soil area with fewer deer. Of course, adding a large amount of agricultural crops such as corn & soybeans can greatly increase the food supply. So does annual mowing of fallow fields. So does making habitat more diverse and allowing more sunlight to hit the ground.

East TN can never HEALTHILY support as great a deer density as West TN in large part because of those soil differences. Yet soil is not necessarily the #1 factor of herd health. Often, it's deer density relative to what that habitat (including the soil) can support. While buck:doe ratios and age structure also play very important roles in "herd health".

Does anyone remember the very Unhealthy deer herd of the Chuck Swan WMA of the 1980's? This was likely most the result of a very poor buck:doe ratio combined with a very high deer density (for that habitat). Chuck Swan WMA is partly in Campbell Co. (partly in Union Co.). As I understand it, the quality of the Chuck Swan deer herd has greatly improved in recent years.

 

[Roost 1]

I just looked up the B&C entries per county in KY it's odd how Whitley Co has so many compared to the counties in that region... Of the the 4 counties that touch Whitley one other gas 8 and the rest have 4 each.. Very interesting.
I also looked up some harvest info for TN, I believe it was 2013 Giles Co killed right at 3000 bucks, I can't see how the bucks get as big as they do down there.....I bet there is not a handful of Ky counties that kill 2000 bucks per year...

I checked the numbers from 2000 to 2015 and no county in Kentucky had killed 2000 bucks in a season. Does Kentucky list their button bucks in the male deer count? I didn't see them listed.

Button bucks would be considered antlerless, would be my guess.

 

[huntforme7909]

The answer is length of season and limit. I used to hunt Whitley.

agreed......not soils so much but length and limit.....that's the key and whomever doesn't see that is dillusional....

 

[TheLBLman]

Another aspect effecting the different outcomes of Whitley vs. Campbell . . . . . .

For the past couple decades, the KDFWR (the KY's version of TN's TWRA) has had a little more focus on overall "herd health". They have purposefully "managed" the entire state for relatively lower deer densities (again, relative to the habitat) than has TWRA in TN. The KDFWR has also focused more on producing and maintaining a more balanced sex annual deer harvest, achieving something closer to a more balanced buck:doe ratio, particularly among adult deer.

Years before TWRA created "Unit L", the KDWWR created their equivalent with "Zone 1". In KY's Zone 1, they were achieving an annual deer harvest of slightly more females than males for years on end (before we started approaching that kind of harvest ratio in TN's Unit L).

Think about this, if we have 1,000 total deer in each of two counties, but one has an adult buck:doe ratio of 1:1.1 and the other has a buck:doe ratio of 1:1.7, the one with the more "balanced" sex ratio has about 50% more adult bucks in that same population of 1,000 deer. That kind of buck:doe ratio not only makes it "easier" for more bucks to reach older ages, but it also improves fawning success, and gives those older bucks better quality food sources. Then, if we were to purposefully manage for a deer density of 900 deer (10% less), the "herd health" notches up even more, while we could still have a lot more bucks than a herd of 1,000 with a poorer buck:doe ratio.

Disclaimer: This is not to say TWRA hasn't been doing an overall great job, even on herd health in recent years. TWRA has had to work with statewide hunters demanding longer gun deer seasons and higher buck limits (compared to KY's deer hunters). For the most part, TWRA has been providing TN's hunters with what they've appeared to want, allowing the buck harvest to be as high as possible (within reason), allowing the deer density to be as high as possible, all without causing unreasonable "harm" to the statewide deer's herd health. TN currently has a pretty healthy statewide deer herd. KY's appears slightly more healthy.

Just what do the hunters want? How are those "wants" trending? I believe TWRA is truly trying to meet our State's hunters' expectations and preferences, which are a little different than those of the average KY hunter's (which KDFWR is also trying to meet for their hunters). The bottom line is the best way to improve herd health in TN is by increasing awareness of it's importance, and then TN hunters may demand even more focus be there.

 

[Roost 1]

The answer is length of season and limit. I used to hunt Whitley.

agreed......not soils so much but length and limit.....that's the key and whomever doesn't see that is dillusional....

I concur!!!!

 

[AXL78]

I'll be off for a few days, but I wan't to add this about that particular area and soils. I'm just pointing this out: Any county that produces 15 Boone and Crockett bucks, and evidently a lot of those in the past decade, has great soil. As someone pointed out earlier, the counties around Whitley don't approach that number. I read last night in 2011 (I think) Whitley produced 4 Boone and Crockett bucks. It is a breeding ground for trophy's.

Now, if you want to say it's no better than Campbell, TN, I can live with it. You can even say Campbell, TN has better soil, but you can't say Whitley, KY has bad soil.

 

[TheLBLman]

. . . . . you can't say Whitley, KY has bad soil.

Whitley County has BAD soil, VERY BAD soil. :mrgreen:
And can STILL grow some great bucks!

It's not beach sand, but it's relatively "bad" to what we find all across West TN?

Neighboring McCreary County has 8 "official" entries. This is the KY county bordering Whitley to the west. True, not as many as Whitley, but a heck of a lot, in fact, I believe more than any single county anywhere in TN? McCreary is mostly composed of the Daniel Boone National Forest.

There are four (4) total Kentucky counties bordering Whitley (one of them being McCreary). NONE of these counties have any fewer than four (4) B&C bucks credited to them.
http://fw.ky.gov/Kentucky-Afield/Docume ... unting.pdf