PickettSFHunter
Well-Known Member
One farm Ive hunted for 10 years or so always has 3 or 4 color phase birds every year. Always hens though, never a gobbler. Never a bearded hen either.
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Huntaholic
Well-Known Member
I was gonna stay out of this one, I tend to think it is a recessive gene in WILD populations that occasionally comes out. HOWEVER, I do know for a fact that pen reared birds were released unsuccessfully even in those areas with remnant populations of the ones God put here. I started hunting Catoosa in the early '80s and learned a lot just sitting around the check station listening to the REAL old timers talk about turkeys and turkey hunting. One very elderly gentleman comes to mind in particular. He was a long sice retired wildlife officer and he actually took part in some of the releases of pen reared birds on Catoosa. He said as near as they could tell, not a single pen raised bird ever lived long enough to interbreed with the true strain easterns that were already there.Setterman said:
GOHUNT
Well-Known Member
Not "one-of-a-kind" but rare. I've seen lots of silver color phase birds, several white birds, but only one white phase hen with a beard, and made a concentrated effort to kill it 2 seasons ago. Even called it in early one morning with a gobbler and other hens, shot at her rather than the strutter, and missed! I was soooooooo dissapointed! Have seen her since though. I'd have the bird full body mount.
I'm not going to pretend to be a Biologist (even though I might qualify), but it is a REALLY nice bird and I assure you not more than one or two MAYBE on this site have ever taken one of those. Bearded hen, plenty, but not in color phase!
I'm not going to pretend to be a Biologist (even though I might qualify), but it is a REALLY nice bird and I assure you not more than one or two MAYBE on this site have ever taken one of those. Bearded hen, plenty, but not in color phase!
megalomaniac said:Not saying the rio/eastern/merriams/gould's/oceola can't breed with the ocellated, but I strongly suspect that the offspring would be sterile (which would therefore have no impact on our turkeys)... kinda like donkeys and horses making mules... Same genus, different species.
In any case, I really don't know jack about the ocellated turkeys except they're really pretty and they don't gobble. And you supposedly walk through the jungle and shoot them out of trees while swatting malaria infested mosquitoes. Doesn't sound like fun to me
Not to mention it will cost you enough money to pay for a couple good elk hunts.i can't believe people pay that much money to hunt them.
Setterman
Well-Known Member
RAFI said:Setterman said:
Guess restocking wasn't part of your thesis on turkey because they did release pen raised turkey in Tn.
Considering I did all of my supporting research in Miss, none of which involved reintroduction, and didn't even move here until 8 years ago, I decided it was best to ask for evidence to support the restocking with domesticated birds. As far as I am concerned a few old timers chewing the fat doesn't constitute evidence. Now a TWRA official citing birds stocked out of domestic backgrounds would be different all together.
I know you made your post as a joke, but the first section of the reply you quoted was a legitimate question with what background I had heard over the years.
I have read it somewhere over the years but not sure where.twra raised tame birds and stocked them .It didn't work.the rocket nets designed for waterfowl saved the wild turkey also.Atleast thats what I read on it.
i was a Soc. major and studied human behavior.I was a bio major a long time ago.lol
i was a Soc. major and studied human behavior.I was a bio major a long time ago.lol
kdxdude
Well-Known Member
The rocket nets also burned up about 20 turkeys that were caught in a net & burned about 18 acres in Columbia, Tn several years ago. They set the rockets off & caught the birds, the rockets set the field on fire, the fire burned the nets & the birds & the wind picked up & the fire burned about 18 acres.
InfoMan
Well-Known Member
Stocking efforts in the 1940's involved pen raised wild birds. They did not do well at all.
Setterman
Well-Known Member
InfoMan said:
So they weren't domestic turkey strains, just wild strains raised in captivity?
megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
Before the cannon net, it just made sense that mankind could simply captive raise 'wild' turkeys, breed them with higher success, and reintroduce them into the wild to replete the population. 'Reintroduction' consisted of both pen raised 'wild' birds and captive hatched true wild birds (obtained from raiding nests for the eggs in the wild). Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately), most died shortly after release. It turns out that a mother hen really does need to imprint survival instincts in poults for them to survive (even as adults) in the wild. In addition, stresses in the wild often led to subclinical diseases in captivity such as coccidiomycosis to become fulminant and lethal.
The really interesting thing about domestic 'wild' turkeys is that although they look exactly like the real 'wild' deal, they behave very differently. True native wild turkeys do not do well in captivity at all... and for this reason, I honestly question just how many truly wild birds were used for reproduction and then stocking of their offspring. I suspect the majority of 'wild' turkeys released were actually birds that displayed the phenotype, but may have had significant genetic differences. In addition, due to life in captivity and reproduction in captivity, many of the aberrant recessive color phases may have been propaged as well.
The cannon net solved most of the problems with trying to reintroduce pen raised birds, trapping and subsequently releasing wild birds suited for the stresses of life outside captivity. But a lot of people still try to help mother nature out a little and take the initiative to reintroduce 'wild' turkeys even today.
I'm sure you've heard of Delta Wildlife in MS... around 25,000 acres of privately held land just south of Delta National Forest. They have a time with the periodic floods which decimate the population. They then have to rely on birds migrating from the hill country, which typically takes 5-10 years. Point is, according to their members, they've released just under 1000 captive raised 'wild' birds over the years after severe floods. I told them they're just wasting their money, but they swear that they had 30 or 40 birds live over a year from thier last release of 250 birds back in the early 2000's. Heck, I bet you can even buy 'wild eastern' turkey eggs on ebay, and I know there are numerous hatcheries selling 'wild eastern' turkey poults...
The really interesting thing about domestic 'wild' turkeys is that although they look exactly like the real 'wild' deal, they behave very differently. True native wild turkeys do not do well in captivity at all... and for this reason, I honestly question just how many truly wild birds were used for reproduction and then stocking of their offspring. I suspect the majority of 'wild' turkeys released were actually birds that displayed the phenotype, but may have had significant genetic differences. In addition, due to life in captivity and reproduction in captivity, many of the aberrant recessive color phases may have been propaged as well.
The cannon net solved most of the problems with trying to reintroduce pen raised birds, trapping and subsequently releasing wild birds suited for the stresses of life outside captivity. But a lot of people still try to help mother nature out a little and take the initiative to reintroduce 'wild' turkeys even today.
I'm sure you've heard of Delta Wildlife in MS... around 25,000 acres of privately held land just south of Delta National Forest. They have a time with the periodic floods which decimate the population. They then have to rely on birds migrating from the hill country, which typically takes 5-10 years. Point is, according to their members, they've released just under 1000 captive raised 'wild' birds over the years after severe floods. I told them they're just wasting their money, but they swear that they had 30 or 40 birds live over a year from thier last release of 250 birds back in the early 2000's. Heck, I bet you can even buy 'wild eastern' turkey eggs on ebay, and I know there are numerous hatcheries selling 'wild eastern' turkey poults...
Huntaholic
Well-Known Member
Infoman has already backed up what I said, and maybe I didnt make it clear before, but the elderly gentleman who told me about it WAS A RETIRED TWRA EMPLOYEE. Damn man, would it kill you to admit you were WRONG about something!?
Setterman
Well-Known Member
mega you completely ignore your original claims that domestic strains were stocked and hence the reason why we have different color phases. Which according to infoman, who believe me knows, is totally false.
So which is it?
There are no genetic differences in a turkey raised in captivity out of a wild egg and wild genes. There are issues with instincts being diluted from human contact and other commonalities to animals living in captivity. DO you feel that the DNA is altered because they are raised in a Pen?
And you are also wrong about wild turkeys being raised in captivity and not surviving. There are plenty of cases where people have raised poults from wild birds and they have done just fine, the problem arises when those birds are let free so to speak. They have lost their wariness and ability to survive natures wrath.
Stick to medicine or shooting piles of spring time hens, it suits you better
So which is it?
There are no genetic differences in a turkey raised in captivity out of a wild egg and wild genes. There are issues with instincts being diluted from human contact and other commonalities to animals living in captivity. DO you feel that the DNA is altered because they are raised in a Pen?
And you are also wrong about wild turkeys being raised in captivity and not surviving. There are plenty of cases where people have raised poults from wild birds and they have done just fine, the problem arises when those birds are let free so to speak. They have lost their wariness and ability to survive natures wrath.
Stick to medicine or shooting piles of spring time hens, it suits you better
megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
Setterman said:
Nope, maybe you're misreading or aren't following...
Domesticated 'wild' turkeys look just like the real thing. Only they've been in captivity for tens, maybe even hundreds of generations. Those 'wild' turkeys that look just like the real thing have also interbred with many other colored turkeys in captivity. Much of that interbreeding is intentional, some of which is unintentional. Now you've got birds which look just like wild turkeys, but carry recessive coloration genetics. And just like 7th grade Mendelean genetics, mix two carriers for a recessive gene, and there's a 1/4 chance the offspring will express the gene.
The every single turkey stocked back in the '40's may have been F1 offspring of captured wild turkeys, but since there were so many F10's and up in captivity, it makes more sense that at least a portion of those used for restocking were birds held in captivity for generations.
Setterman said:
Who knows? Not you, Not TWRA, and I admit, not even me... what I've been saying is that it is impossible to discount the possibility that many of the wild turkeys we hunt today have ancestors which were once in captivity. AND that while color phases occur naturally, a result of our restocking efforts may very well have introduced genetics which contribute to an increased frequency of color phased birds. No one will know for sure, and as far as I know, there is no documentation regarding the incidence of color phase birds from the 1600's-1800's in the US.
Setterman said:
I agree completely that there are no genetic differences in a wild turkey hatched from an egg in captivity vs a wild turkey hatched from an egg in the wild. I also agree (see previous post) that instincts necessary for survivial in the wild are so poorly developed in captivity that their loss often precludes survival in the wild. I suspect the number of birds released from artifically incubated wild turkey nests was fairly small... due to poor populations and the difficulty in locating significant number of nests.
But I DO feel that the DNA of turkeys raised for generations in a pen IS altered- much of which is intentional. Heck, even you must admit that there are differences in the DNA in natural colored turkeys and colored turkeys in the wild. Again, if only F1 offspring were stocked, then my point is moot. But there just weren't enough native 'wild' turkeys to produce enough F1 offspring for any significant stocking efforts.
Setterman said:
I never said that wild turkeys can't be raised in captivity and not survive (again, see previous post). I said 'true native wild turkeys do not do well in captivity'. Which is what any wild turkey biologist would also tell you. Capture a wild turkey, put it in a pen for livestock, and see what happens. It won't be pretty. Even if you hatch the eggs yourself, the poults/ pullets/ hens will be nervous, flighty, and more susceptible to disease as a result. They haven't lost all their wariness, although it's been subdued.
Setterman said:
Aww, now don't go and get your feelings are hurt. I thought you were above resorting to personal attacks and could actually have an intelligent discussion without mudslinging (although you do like to snipe more than many).
Setterman
Well-Known Member
I shouldn't waste my time but what the heck, first I wasn't personally attacking or mudslinging, hence the , to signify such. Of course, I might be sensitive like you if I had knowingly hid 3 hens which were illegally harvested during the spring, lost a crippled longbeard, and then lie to everyone on this forum about the events. But that's neither here nor there, and not pertinent to this discussion.
I am sure there is some tiny infinitesimal shred of possibility that your theory could hold water. However, you are really digging deep to try and line the stars up perfectly to support your views. You originally state, that domestic strains were stocked over the years, and now are retreating from that, for obvious reasons. Proof was given by an extremely knowledgeable TWRA rep who knows the history of where and how are birds were reintroduced. But rather then concede, come up with obscure possibilities as to why, other then reality, turkeys just like deer show color variations withing certain populations.
I am sorry, but I just do not see your side of this discussion. If it were isolated in only turkeys then I might concede. But seeing how all forms of wildlife shows color variations across populations, I am not willing to believe that any color variation in turkeys is a result of domestic influences.
, to signify such. Of course, I might be sensitive like you if I had knowingly hid 3 hens which were illegally harvested during the spring, lost a crippled longbeard, and then lie to everyone on this forum about the events. But that's neither here nor there, and not pertinent to this discussion.I am sure there is some tiny infinitesimal shred of possibility that your theory could hold water. However, you are really digging deep to try and line the stars up perfectly to support your views. You originally state, that domestic strains were stocked over the years, and now are retreating from that, for obvious reasons. Proof was given by an extremely knowledgeable TWRA rep who knows the history of where and how are birds were reintroduced. But rather then concede, come up with obscure possibilities as to why, other then reality, turkeys just like deer show color variations withing certain populations.
I am sorry, but I just do not see your side of this discussion. If it were isolated in only turkeys then I might concede. But seeing how all forms of wildlife shows color variations across populations, I am not willing to believe that any color variation in turkeys is a result of domestic influences.
kldeerkiller
Well-Known Member
I saw one that looks just like the pic this spring. She hung out in this 20 acre field and the odd thing was gobblers would not go near her.
megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
Guess I really did pee in your cornflakes
My theory has not changed throughout this thread, there has been no 'retreating from it, for obvious reasons'.
Just to state it again plainly... it is my supposition that the wild turkeys we hunt have been influenced genetically (although unintentionally in most cases) in many locales through both the restocking efforts of state and federal agencies, as well as private individuals. That influence is one of the factors that leads to increased aberration in colors of certain turkey flocks.
I'm not insisting you adopt my theory, and have stated plainly that it is only a theory. I have provided logical supportive arguments for it, while in return you have provided nonsensical and often silly comments about barnyard geese and aflak ducks. Until you decode the turkey genome, you will be unable to disprove my theory. And again, as I have already stated, show any turkey biologist a colored turkey and they will give you the same answer... it's probably a naturally occuring color phase, but one can't rule out the possibility of domestic influence.
Furthermore, I honestly think it STILL happens from time to time. On the farm I killed the red/ white gobbler intermingled with wild turkey hens that ended up being a pure domestic bird, I had not seen any color-phased birds in the years previously. A couple of years later, 5-10% of that flock exhibited varying degrees of red and white. They've since disappeared over the next 15 years. Perhaps just a coincidence, but awfully suspicious.
Of course, I still think there is more to the Kennedy assassination than what has been released to the public as well.
My theory has not changed throughout this thread, there has been no 'retreating from it, for obvious reasons'.
Just to state it again plainly... it is my supposition that the wild turkeys we hunt have been influenced genetically (although unintentionally in most cases) in many locales through both the restocking efforts of state and federal agencies, as well as private individuals. That influence is one of the factors that leads to increased aberration in colors of certain turkey flocks.
I'm not insisting you adopt my theory, and have stated plainly that it is only a theory. I have provided logical supportive arguments for it, while in return you have provided nonsensical and often silly comments about barnyard geese and aflak ducks. Until you decode the turkey genome, you will be unable to disprove my theory. And again, as I have already stated, show any turkey biologist a colored turkey and they will give you the same answer... it's probably a naturally occuring color phase, but one can't rule out the possibility of domestic influence.
Furthermore, I honestly think it STILL happens from time to time. On the farm I killed the red/ white gobbler intermingled with wild turkey hens that ended up being a pure domestic bird, I had not seen any color-phased birds in the years previously. A couple of years later, 5-10% of that flock exhibited varying degrees of red and white. They've since disappeared over the next 15 years. Perhaps just a coincidence, but awfully suspicious.
Of course, I still think there is more to the Kennedy assassination than what has been released to the public as well.
megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
Oh, and rastubbs, again sorry for the thread hijack...
It's a very beautiful bird.
It's a very beautiful bird.
Winchester
Well-Known Member
What the heyal is this all about, I obviously missed something along the way here?
