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Mid April Opening Days Suck

poorhunter said:
Well, it doesn't say why.

It ain't nest raiders either as they have always been the number one killer of turkeys, and there really aren't any more now than there used to be. Nest raiders contribute, but they are not THE reason and controlling them won't fix the low PPH.
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Of course there are.. There are more predators raiding nests and eating poults...
 
poorhunter said:
Well, it doesn't say why.

It ain't nest raiders either as they have always been the number one killer of turkeys, and there really aren't any more now than there used to be. Nest raiders contribute, but they are not THE reason and controlling them won't fix the low PPH.
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There has absolutely been an explosion of predators the last 5-8 years, there is quadruple the amount of coons, possums, skunks, crows, hawks and eagles!!! Im in the woods and fields everyday and my year around cameras also show the same. Im not saying they are the only contributors but to say there isnt more than ever is foolish
 
knightrider said:
There has absolutely been an explosion of predators the last 5-8 years, there is quadruple the amount of coons, possums, skunks, crows, hawks and eagles!!!
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Armadillos are relatively new to TN and they are everywhere now. They eat turkey eggs. The coon population seems to have exploded. Hardly anybody coon hunts anymore. I see exponentially more coyotes every year. Then there's raptors. Bald eagle sightings used to be a treat. Now they are common. There's a hawk or owl in every tree. It's surprising that we have any turkeys make it to maturity when you think about it.
 
deerfever said:
Which counties in east TN have you been in? Do.these PPH numbers come from the people who tune it in online or how do they arrive at them?
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I haven't been in any East TN counties lately. I'm referencing the most recent Wild Turkey Status Report that Roger Shields office publishes. See this thread: https://www.tndeer.com/threads/2023-wild-turkey-status-report.451669/

They use poult survey data provided by in-field TWRA personnel and staff (numbers of hens/poults observed during specific months) and info reported separately by the general public. Fortunately, they separate those categories.

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Winchester said:
I dont like the delayed start either but I do feel like it will save some birds which is the intention. Here in East Tn our Turkey population has taken a big dive in the last 5-10 years. Still plenty of birds to hunt and kill but nowhere near the numbers and big flocks we had a decade ago!
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Good to see you posting
 
I fully understand that I am in the vast minority that does not think there are more (not appreciably at least) best raiders today than 5,10,20 or 50 years ago. Coon hunters could barely put a dent in populations of raccoons on one specific property, much less over the entire landscape where turkeys live. Coyotes, bobcats, hawks etc have all been around, and while there are more of them now and hawks can play havoc on a flock of poults, they simply cannot have that big of an effect population wide.
What we are seeing is a vast decline over all habitat types over the entire south. There is something else going on, and it is way too oversimplified to blame nest raiders. Trapping the snot out of them will indeed reduce their population but it is VERY fleeting with their productivity.
It's not habitat either. There are square mile upon mile upon square mile of prime turkey habitat that have seen a huge decline in turkeys, and marginal habitat that is holding steady or increasing even. Urban sprawl? Turkeys are thriving there. Clear cuts or other logging? Those are a boon to turkeys over time. Turning land into row crops? Turkeys are going bonkers and have for decades in the corn belt with spotty woodlands.
All of these things may have an impact, but they are either negligible across the whole landscape or have a positive impact. No, there is something else killing our turkeys. Maybe disease. Maybe poison. Maybe too effective hunting tactics and long liberal seasons and bag limits. I don't know what it is for sure, but I am 1000% convinced it is not best raiders.
 
Here is my take. There are more turkeys. In pockets. If you can find that pocket hunting is phenomenal. The morning I killed number 2 I heard no telling how bent turkeys gobble but they were all within 300 yards. When I killed I sat down and had a great talk with god. I don't know how far I had been but when I strapped up my turkey it took me an hour to get back to my truck. My point is between my truck and where I killed I heard 0. So lots of turkeys in small area. If you on just area hunting was great. If not terrible.
 
Spurhunter said:
I would be happy to hunt other properties, but turkey leases are pretty much impossible to find. I know a lot of people gain access by going door to door, but I have never done it. I absolutely hate asking anybody for anything. I won't do it unless it was totally necessary. I probably need to swallow my pride and learn to knock on doors and ask for permission or ask to lease hunting rights.
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I'd start by asking the owner of the pastures. Sounds like no one hunts them or very little. Worst they can say is no.
 
muddyboots said:
Here is my take. There are more turkeys. In pockets. If you can find that pocket hunting is phenomenal. The morning I killed number 2 I heard no telling how bent turkeys gobble but they were all within 300 yards. When I killed I sat down and had a great talk with god. I don't know how far I had been but when I strapped up my turkey it took me an hour to get back to my truck. My point is between my truck and where I killed I heard 0. So lots of turkeys in small area. If you on just area hunting was great. If not terrible.
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This exactly... once turkeys got wiped out 10 years ago, they just don't recover in thise areas. Turkeys don't distribute themselves across the landscape to repopulate void areas like deer. A flock of turkeys may venture out a mile or so from their spring home range to as late nesting hens to get away from the early nesters (which pulls toms with them), but they aren't going much more than a mile from their core area in the spring if all their needs are met in their core area. This is why folks who shot out or lost their birds for whatever reason their in the mid 2010s don't have any now. Sure, there may be a huge flock 10 miles away, but those birds might as well be on the moon.

The key is figuring out what is so good about those pockets that still have turkeys. I wish I could figure that out. I have seen the same thing in every state I've hunted in the past 5 years.
 
@fulldraw said:
I'd start by asking the owner of the pastures. Sounds like no one hunts them or very little. Worst they can say is no.
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I hear an occasional shot around me, but it's hard to pinpoint exactly which properties. But I agree. I've wanted to talk to them for several years but just hate pulling up to someone's house uninvited.
 
Spurhunter said:
I hear an occasional shot around me, but it's hard to pinpoint exactly which properties. But I agree. I've wanted to talk to them for several years but just hate pulling up to someone's house uninvited.
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Those toms aren't spending the middle of the day in the full sun of pastures.... esp in May on hot days... guaranteed.

Do you have any hardwood bottoms/ streamside management zones? That's where the toms are going mid day I'd suspect.
 
poorhunter said:
I fully understand that I am in the vast minority that does not think there are more (not appreciably at least) best raiders today than 5,10,20 or 50 years ago. Coon hunters could barely put a dent in populations of raccoons on one specific property, much less over the entire landscape where turkeys live. Coyotes, bobcats, hawks etc have all been around, and while there are more of them now and hawks can play havoc on a flock of poults, they simply cannot have that big of an effect population wide.
What we are seeing is a vast decline over all habitat types over the entire south. There is something else going on, and it is way too oversimplified to blame nest raiders. Trapping the snot out of them will indeed reduce their population but it is VERY fleeting with their productivity.
It's not habitat either. There are square mile upon mile upon square mile of prime turkey habitat that have seen a huge decline in turkeys, and marginal habitat that is holding steady or increasing even. Urban sprawl? Turkeys are thriving there. Clear cuts or other logging? Those are a boon to turkeys over time. Turning land into row crops? Turkeys are going bonkers and have for decades in the corn belt with spotty woodlands.
All of these things may have an impact, but they are either negligible across the whole landscape or have a positive impact. No, there is something else killing our turkeys. Maybe disease. Maybe poison. Maybe too effective hunting tactics and long liberal seasons and bag limits. I don't know what it is for sure, but I am 1000% convinced it is not best raiders.
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Just seen this posted on social media. Take it for what it's worth but it appears alarming and could easily account for the reduction in reproduction.
As for predators, idk. Plenty of research that shows excessive trapping can work but it's at a level that practically none of us can do plus once the trapping stops the predators come back. I'm like you, I don't think predators, in of themselves, are the issue. Is the lacking habitat making it easier for predators? Sure, I could see that. But is the lacking habitat not having an impact on predators too?

Anyways, this is telling…especially since we know for a fact we are loosing farm land to development at an alarming rate.
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poorhunter said:
I fully understand that I am in the vast minority that does not think there are more (not appreciably at least) best raiders today than 5,10,20 or 50 years ago. Coon hunters could barely put a dent in populations of raccoons on one specific property, much less over the entire landscape where turkeys live. Coyotes, bobcats, hawks etc have all been around, and while there are more of them now and hawks can play havoc on a flock of poults, they simply cannot have that big of an effect population wide.
What we are seeing is a vast decline over all habitat types over the entire south. There is something else going on, and it is way too oversimplified to blame nest raiders. Trapping the snot out of them will indeed reduce their population but it is VERY fleeting with their productivity.
It's not habitat either. There are square mile upon mile upon square mile of prime turkey habitat that have seen a huge decline in turkeys, and marginal habitat that is holding steady or increasing even. Urban sprawl? Turkeys are thriving there. Clear cuts or other logging? Those are a boon to turkeys over time. Turning land into row crops? Turkeys are going bonkers and have for decades in the corn belt with spotty woodlands.
All of these things may have an impact, but they are either negligible across the whole landscape or have a positive impact. No, there is something else killing our turkeys. Maybe disease. Maybe poison. Maybe too effective hunting tactics and long liberal seasons and bag limits. I don't know what it is for sure, but I am 1000% convinced it is not best raiders
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Great post. You're right there is something else there. Especially in southern middle. You can't tell me there is a disproportionate amount of nest raiders between Maury and Giles county. Plus there has been more habitat lost in Maury than Giles... I do still believe predation is 95% the issue and not male harvest.

A lot of it may be just as simple as carrying capacity. I guess if an animal explodes on the landscape they will eventually settle back to a more sustainable level that the habitat provides for?
 
Bgoodman30 said:
Great post. You're right there is something else there. Especially in southern middle. You can't tell me there is a disproportionate amount of nest raiders between Maury and Giles county. Plus there has been more habitat lost in Maury than Giles... I do still believe predation is 95% the issue and not male harvest.

A lot of it may be just as simple as carrying capacity. I guess if an animal explodes on the landscape they will eventually settle back to a more sustainable level that the habitat provides for?
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There is some credible research that says what you're saying about a population explosion when introduced and then coming back down to normal, but that would take place within 5-10 years at most for a species like wild turkey. Turkeys have thrived and expanded for decades in some places.
This is akin to the disappearance of bobwhite quail. Everyone wants to blame habitat loss or cutting down fence rows, and that's utterly comical. There's thousands upon thousands of acres of prime quail habitat all over and the birds are gone. Something, most likely disease imo, but also maybe herbicides/pesticides, or something that made them sterile, got introduced to quail and slowly they got wiped out. It certainly wasn't hunting pressure with quail, but it could be with turkeys.
 
Bgoodman30 said:
Great post. You're right there is something else there. Especially in southern middle. You can't tell me there is a disproportionate amount of nest raiders between Maury and Giles county. Plus there has been more habitat lost in Maury than Giles... I do still believe predation is 95% the issue and not male harvest.

A lot of it may be just as simple as carrying capacity. I guess if an animal explodes on the landscape they will eventually settle back to a more sustainable level that the habitat provides for?
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amen!! if you can prove to me maury co
knightrider said:
There has absolutely been an explosion of predators the last 5-8 years, there is quadruple the amount of coons, possums, skunks, crows, hawks and eagles!!! Im in the woods and fields everyday and my year around cameras also show the same. Im not saying they are the only contributors but to say there isnt more than ever is foolish
Click to expand...
i guess Maury co does not have that problem!!! spring hill or not. they prob have better habitat than rural wayne county!!! 🫣🫣
 
Does walking around yelling hey turkey count as a turkey call. Cause so far the gobblers have been acting like that's what I been doing. . Hopefully I can get out this weekend. And hopefully they will still be gobbling.
 

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