Mid April Opening Days Suck

[WilcoKen]

Here is my take. There are more turkeys. In pockets. If you can find that pocket hunting is phenomenal. The morning I killed number 2 I heard no telling how bent turkeys gobble but they were all within 300 yards. When I killed I sat down and had a great talk with god. I don't know how far I had been but when I strapped up my turkey it took me an hour to get back to my truck. My point is between my truck and where I killed I heard 0. So lots of turkeys in small area. If you on just area hunting was great. If not terrible.

I agree with this. Outside the pockets, it sucks bad. That's where I'm at on a couple places.

 

[WilcoKen]

I fully understand that I am in the vast minority that does not think there are more (not appreciably at least) best raiders today than 5,10,20 or 50 years ago. Coon hunters could barely put a dent in populations of raccoons on one specific property, much less over the entire landscape where turkeys live. Coyotes, bobcats, hawks etc have all been around, and while there are more of them now and hawks can play havoc on a flock of poults, they simply cannot have that big of an effect population wide.
What we are seeing is a vast decline over all habitat types over the entire south. There is something else going on, and it is way too oversimplified to blame nest raiders. Trapping the snot out of them will indeed reduce their population but it is VERY fleeting with their productivity.
It's not habitat either. There are square mile upon mile upon square mile of prime turkey habitat that have seen a huge decline in turkeys, and marginal habitat that is holding steady or increasing even. Urban sprawl? Turkeys are thriving there. Clear cuts or other logging? Those are a boon to turkeys over time. Turning land into row crops? Turkeys are going bonkers and have for decades in the corn belt with spotty woodlands.
All of these things may have an impact, but they are either negligible across the whole landscape or have a positive impact. No, there is something else killing our turkeys. Maybe disease. Maybe poison. Maybe too effective hunting tactics and long liberal seasons and bag limits. I don't know what it is for sure, but I am 1000% convinced it is not best raiders.

I sometimes wonder if it's the same thing that happened to quail. I sure hope not.

 

[drake799]

I think the hunters/hunting is what's causing the turkey problem. Quail hunting wasn't near as popular when the quail declined as turkey hunting is these days Lot of people will disagree with me and that's fine but with the popularization of the sport has came a decrease in birds. I don't think that's a coincidence. I'm glad they've pushed the season back and lowered the limits Will anything change idk. But we can't just keep doing what we've been doing and hope for the best I'd like to be able to hunt them 10-20 years from now lol

 

[Bgoodman30]

I think the hunters/hunting is what's causing the turkey problem. Quail hunting wasn't near as popular when the quail declined as turkey hunting is these days Lot of people will disagree with me and that's fine but with the popularization of the sport has came a decrease in birds. I don't think that's a coincidence. I'm glad they've pushed the season back and lowered the limits Will anything change idk. But we can't just keep doing what we've been doing and hope for the best I'd like to be able to hunt them 10-20 years from now lol

So you're saying quail hunters didn't cause the decline of quail but turkey hunters caused the decline of turkeys...? Makes sense..

 

[drake799]

I think it's pretty much common sense by now lol the decoys the guns/ammo the tactics just the sheer number of people hunting them these days. We just keep slowly whittling them down. It's not just here. It's all over the country. No one wants to admit we're our own worst enemy because we're selfish. People are afraid they'll lose some tags or "opportunity" as they call it lol Its sad

 

[timberjack86]

Well, it doesn't say why.

It ain't nest raiders either as they have always been the number one killer of turkeys, and there really aren't any more now than there used to be. Nest raiders contribute, but they are not THE reason and controlling them won't fix the low PPH.

If the graph is right it makes perfect sense, poults survived better when there was a good market for trappers. As the trapping market tanked so did the poult survivability. JMO

 

[timberjack86]

I fully understand that I am in the vast minority that does not think there are more (not appreciably at least) best raiders today than 5,10,20 or 50 years ago. Coon hunters could barely put a dent in populations of raccoons on one specific property, much less over the entire landscape where turkeys live. Coyotes, bobcats, hawks etc have all been around, and while there are more of them now and hawks can play havoc on a flock of poults, they simply cannot have that big of an effect population wide.
What we are seeing is a vast decline over all habitat types over the entire south. There is something else going on, and it is way too oversimplified to blame nest raiders. Trapping the snot out of them will indeed reduce their population but it is VERY fleeting with their productivity.
It's not habitat either. There are square mile upon mile upon square mile of prime turkey habitat that have seen a huge decline in turkeys, and marginal habitat that is holding steady or increasing even. Urban sprawl? Turkeys are thriving there. Clear cuts or other logging? Those are a boon to turkeys over time. Turning land into row crops? Turkeys are going bonkers and have for decades in the corn belt with spotty woodlands.
All of these things may have an impact, but they are either negligible across the whole landscape or have a positive impact. No, there is something else killing our turkeys. Maybe disease. Maybe poison. Maybe too effective hunting tactics and long liberal seasons and bag limits. I don't know what it is for sure, but I am 1000% convinced it is not best raiders.

News flash, most coonhunters will not shoot every coon they tree. A hunter with a couple good dogs can decimate the coon population if they so desire. Most want to keep hunting coons so they leave em. I've heard all my life from old timers that coons were almost nonexistent after the great depression. Everyone hunted them to eat back then. We need to really Crack down on nest raiders!

 

[poorhunter]

News flash, most coonhunters will not shoot every coon they tree. A hunter with a couple good dogs can decimate the coon population if they so desire. Most want to keep hunting coons so they leave em. I've heard all my life from old timers that coons were almost nonexistent after the great depression. Everyone hunted them to eat back then. We need to really Crack down on nest raiders!

Everything you say is true. I have coon hunted a time or two and know some who did so competitively . They are still not the reason for the massive population decline of the wild turkey in the last decade. They can not be. The populations of nest raiders is not any appreciably different today than it was while turkeys were being reintroduced and established all across the US, and the population of turkeys exploded with them there. Can coons be mostly eliminated from a certain property? Sure they can, but that is not going to have an effect on the population across whole counties and states of wild turkeys. And I am still in favor of killing all the coons and skunks and opossums I can though.

 

[timberjack86]

Everything you say is true. I have coon hunted a time or two and know some who did so competitively . They are still not the reason for the massive population decline of the wild turkey in the last decade. They can not be. The populations of nest raiders is not any appreciably different today than it was while turkeys were being reintroduced and established all across the US, and the population of turkeys exploded with them there. Can coons be mostly eliminated from a certain property? Sure they can, but that is not going to have an effect on the population across whole counties and states of wild turkeys. And I am still in favor of killing all the coons and skunks and opossums I can though.

We will have to agree to disagree , I've seen first hand if you rage war on nest raiders you'll have more poults and later on more gobblers to hunt. If you sit by and do nothing you can continue to watch your population decline. Do I think nest raiders are the whole problem? No something else is going on, but I think nest raiders are 75 percent of the reason the population is in such decline. Imo

 

[poorhunter]

We will have to agree to disagree , I've seen first hand if you rage war on nest raiders you'll have more poults and later on more gobblers to hunt. If you sit by and do nothing you can continue to watch your population decline. Do I think nest raiders are the whole problem? No something else is going on, but I think nest raiders are 75 percent of the reason the population is in such decline. Imo

Nest raiders have always been the number one killer of turkeys, and an individual property owner can control them to the point they can help save a few nests without a doubt. This cannot be been done across counties and states is all I'm saying. And the nest raider populations were just as high when turkeys expanded their range after reintroduction as they are today. Those two things are simply true. Something else is happening that is causing the decline because the other reasons given are a constant in the equation.

 

[poorhunter]

In my area of Hickman county we went from winter flocks of over 30-50 toms to 5 toms in one winter. I watched/saw/listened to them throughout bow season and rifle season, and then before turkey season that year they were gone. They stayed "gone" for several years, and are now back to 50% of what they were. Why did they disappear from all the farms I hunt in two months? I'm not saying what happened here is the same thing that has happened across the state of TN or the whole southeast. Most have testified it has been a slow decline. But all the landowners and lease holders of properties around me said the same thing, turkeys disappeared overnight and they went from being able to hunt anywhere around but for a few years just in the best spots or not at all, and they are still not all the way back to before. One thing for sure is that if a game population is in decline, everyone needs to recognize it and reduce their taking of said game accordingly and not kill them all. Four bird limits and 8 or 10 week seasons and all day hunting with decoys is NOT going to help. Unfortunately individual hunters don't care enough about the resource to conserve it without being told they have to by the state.

 

[megalomaniac]

This thread kinda got derailed, so I guess I'll push it farther off the tracks

The more time I spend with them, the more I have come to believe that coyotes are THE number 1 problem... much more so than nest raiders. And that's mostly because they are killing the adult birds, especially the nesting hens. Losing a clutch of eggs sucks... but not nearly as costly as losing an adult hen, who could have otherwise renested.

And coyotes are incredibly adaptable... back in the eaely 90s as turkey populations exploded on my farms, the coyotes did not view them as a food source. The birds and coyotes ignored each other and coexisted peacefully. But something happened in the mid 2000s... coyotes started actively hinting turkeys and I began to find feather piles along fences where adult birds were trapped and killed. And it seemed to peak about 4 years ago, when I actually called in 5 coyotes yelping with a call during season.

We had a massive distemper outbreak in 2022 and most of the coyotes died. Last year, we made a conscious effort to not allow them to repopulate, and we killed 24. Maybe just a coincidence, but we had the best hatch we've had in over a decade last year. I'm really thinking staying after the dogs is THE reason.

So far this year we are up to 6 counting the pair that came to howls this morning on one of my properties.

 

[Spurhunter]

Unfortunately individual hunters don't care enough about the resource to conserve it without being told they have to by the state.

You said a mouthful there. We took 3 longbeards off the place in MS, and decided that was enough, so we are leaving it alone. Even though we have no birds to hunt in TN we will not go over hunt that place. That approach isn't widely practiced though.

 

[Spurhunter]

This thread kinda got derailed, so I guess I'll push it farther off the tracks

The more time I spend with them, the more I have come to believe that coyotes are THE number 1 problem... much more so than nest raiders. And that's mostly because they are killing the adult birds, especially the nesting hens. Losing a clutch of eggs sucks... but not nearly as costly as losing an adult hen, who could have otherwise renested.

And coyotes are incredibly adaptable... back in the eaely 90s as turkey populations exploded on my farms, the coyotes did not view them as a food source. The birds and coyotes ignored each other and coexisted peacefully. But something happened in the mid 2000s... coyotes started actively hinting turkeys and I began to find feather piles along fences where adult birds were trapped and killed. And it seemed to peak about 4 years ago, when I actually called in 5 coyotes yelping with a call during season.

We had a massive distemper outbreak in 2022 and most of the coyotes died. Last year, we made a conscious effort to not allow them to repopulate, and we killed 24. Maybe just a coincidence, but we had the best hatch we've had in over a decade last year. I'm really thinking staying after the dogs is THE reason.

So far this year we are up to 6 counting the pair that came to howls this morning on one of my properties.

I hope you are right. With the new coyote regs we should be able to make a difference statewide.

 

[Bell3wv]

I've talked before about how my place greens up and gets thick somewhere around April 10th (give or take a day or two) and the turkeys leave for the pretty cattle pastures that surround me. I used to get a week of good hunting. Maybe two if I was very lucky. I knew with the late opener, early green up, and the fact that we've never killed a turkey on this lease past April 10th that my season was over before it started. But, being a turkey hunter, I had to give it a shot.

I hunted 5 of the first 8 days of season from first light until fly up. I wish I knew how many miles I walked and how many times I almost needed a helicopter evacuation crossing a ditch or creek. All to hear exactly one gobbler on the place opening morning. He gobbled a couple times as he headed for greener pastures. From then on every gobble I heard was well across the property line. I'm sure it is possible to call a turkey out of a pretty cattle pasture full of grasshoppers into a thick, sticker bush infested pine forest, but I can't do it. I tried. For days.

I sat there Saturday evening thinking about the old timers that would get up everyday and go turkey hunting knowing they most likely wouldn't hear a turkey. I couldn't decide if that was dedication or insanity. At least I could hear a gobble and try to call him in, knowing full well he wasn't coming. Alas, every man has his limits. My dedication only goes so far. This year the turkeys won. Maybe someday the folks that set the seasons will see fit to push the opener back to the first of April.

Well, you've got to hang in there. If you quit you'll have to change your TNDEER handle

 

[Spurhunter]

Well, you've got to hang in there. If you quit you'll have to change your TNDEER handle

I went Friday and didn't hear a peep. However, I didn't hear a peep in any direction on any property so I think it just wasn't a good gobbling day. I haven't quit, but it's tempting. I have another farm I've checked a couple mornings, and my son has checked a couple mornings, but we haven't heard anything or found any sign. But, we know there are birds in the area. I'm going to give it another listen this weekend. The neighbor said he's had hens and jakes on his cameras but not the first longbeard.

 

[Bell3wv]

NE Tennessee has been tough too. Not much gobbling on roost and very little throughout the day. I think coyotes may have been working on them. I didn't get after them this winter like I should have. Hang in there, call sparingly, and enjoy some time in the woods.

 

[Gravey]

This thread kinda got derailed, so I guess I'll push it farther off the tracks

The more time I spend with them, the more I have come to believe that coyotes are THE number 1 problem... much more so than nest raiders. And that's mostly because they are killing the adult birds, especially the nesting hens. Losing a clutch of eggs sucks... but not nearly as costly as losing an adult hen, who could have otherwise renested.

And coyotes are incredibly adaptable... back in the eaely 90s as turkey populations exploded on my farms, the coyotes did not view them as a food source. The birds and coyotes ignored each other and coexisted peacefully. But something happened in the mid 2000s... coyotes started actively hinting turkeys and I began to find feather piles along fences where adult birds were trapped and killed. And it seemed to peak about 4 years ago, when I actually called in 5 coyotes yelping with a call during season.

We had a massive distemper outbreak in 2022 and most of the coyotes died. Last year, we made a conscious effort to not allow them to repopulate, and we killed 24. Maybe just a coincidence, but we had the best hatch we've had in over a decade last year. I'm really thinking staying after the dogs is THE reason.

So far this year we are up to 6 counting the pair that came to howls this morning on one of my properties.

Hunting this morning and found a pile of turkey feathers next to a fence row. Saw a coyote yesterday and tried to lip squeak it in but didn't work.

 

[Southern Sportsman]

And the nest raider populations were just as high when turkeys expanded their range after reintroduction as they are today. Those two things are simply true. Something else is happening that is causing the decline . . .

I absolutely think there is "something else" at play, and likely multiple "somethings." But I just can't agree with your assessment that mesopredator populations are the sane now as they were during reintroduction. Every piece of research and data I have ever seen indicates that raccoon populations have expanded significantly since fur prices bottomed out in the '80s. I listened to a recent podcast with Craig Harper a week or two ago. I was unaware of this, but he said that raccoons were still being "reintroduced" in Tennessee into the '80s. And there has been very little to keep their numbers in check since. There is simply no argument to be made to dispute the increase in raptor numbers in the last 20 years. I don't even think armadillos existed in TN 20 years ago. Now you can't drive 5 miles without seeing one dead on the road. Fox numbers are down, but only in response to ever growing coyote populations.

Which turkey/nest predators do you think have remained stable over the last 20 years?

 

[poorhunter]

I absolutely think there is "something else" at play, and likely multiple "somethings." But I just can't agree with your assessment that mesopredator populations are the sane now as they were during reintroduction. Every piece of research and data I have ever seen indicates that raccoon populations have expanded significantly since fur prices bottomed out in the '80s. I listened to a recent podcast with Craig Harper a week or two ago. I was unaware of this, but he said that raccoons were still being "reintroduced" in Tennessee into the '80s. And there has been very little to keep their numbers in check since. There is simply no argument to be made to dispute the increase in raptor numbers in the last 20 years. I don't even think armadillos existed in TN 20 years ago. Now you can't drive 5 miles without seeing one dead on the road. Fox numbers are down, but only in response to ever growing coyote populations.

Which turkey/nest predators do you think have remained stable over the last 20 years?

Remained stable? All of them. Coons, opossums, skunks, snakes. I'm not convinced armadillos eat eggs, and have seen different biologists say they do and some they don't, but if they do eat eggs their population in Tennessee is significantly higher since reintroduction. What I mean by nest raider populations are "stable" is that across the entire landscape where turkeys and nests raiders live, the population of the raiders has remained relatively the same for 40-50 years. I completely agree that they can be reduced dramatically on certain properties through hunting and trapping, but those properties are so widespread and spotty that there is practically zero effect on their population across say a county sized area. Those properties that controlled them must keep up the pressure year after year after year to have any impact on turkey populations.

I would certainly agree that there are several things that limit turkey populations…that kill turkeys. Nest raiders have always been number one, weather number two (and in certain years and locales number one). What throws a wrench into it is disease and human predation. There can also be something like a DDT we don't know about that is causing sterility in toms or hens. Aflotoxin is downright murderous on turkeys, especially winter flocks, which can be almost completely wiped out in a weekend.

Habitat loss is not a limiting factor imo on turkeys because they adapt quite well to a tremendous variety of environments.

I do understand quite well that I am in direct conflict with accepted biologists in some of what I'm saying. But accepted biologists are often biased and they disagree with one another as well.