Food Plots Old field new plot

[Bgoodman30]

I've got two new plots I want to start in old fields. The fields are tops with a 5.9ph. They are mowed once a year in the fall and have lots of woody plants.. The kind of field that you break an ankle walking in. The 2 fields are about 7 acres total and soil test recommends 2500# per acre for clover and 1750# for fall plots.

I have been planting about 1.5 acres at a time in the fall spraying and throwing oats/wheat/clover with moderate success.. Its hard access but I was planning on taking a tractor up there soon and discing, lime and spraying. I would like to get rid of the woody mess and establish clover and fill in fall plots as needed. Any advice is appreciated.

 

[Popcorn]

I would seriously consider not disking! Spray, sow, mow yes but establishing spring planted clover can be tough. Leaving standing matter or mowing it down on your seed will help preserve moisture, keep the soil cool and reduce weeds and competing plants.
I would also consider pelletized lime for a faster response and less tonnage per acre.
I would also include tillage radishes and turnips to my fall planting or clover and wheat.

 

[Popcorn]

If I felt I had to till the ground to improve the rough nature then I would forego the clover and plant a soil building crop for summer then get my clover in next fall!

 

[JCDEERMAN]

I would seriously consider not disking! Spray, sow, mow yes but establishing spring planted clover can be tough. Leaving standing matter or mowing it down on your seed will help preserve moisture, keep the soil cool and reduce weeds and competing plants.
I would also consider pelletized lime for a faster response and less tonnage per acre.
I would also include tillage radishes and turnips to my fall planting or clover and wheat.

Agree on everything here. Yes - establishing clover in fall is best. I'd lime and fertilize now, then spray, sow, then mow for spring (and use same method for fall planting). Maybe a mix of heavy buckwheat and some sorghum this spring. For the fall - yes, wheat, oats, clovers (say 2-3 different varieties), and also some radishes and turnips to help grow deeper and break up the soil. You can then frost seed clover into the clover plot next spring.

As far as the spray, as woody as it is, for spring i'd use gly for sure. Maybe some Triclopyr depending on timing of spraying and sowing (can't remember if there is residual on triclopyr). We now only use that on TSI. Best of luck and keep us updated

 

[Ski]

I'll play devils advocate and say till baby till! I've given an honest multiple year effort to no till throw & mow, and have nothing but years of mostly failed plots and a shed full of chemicals to show for it. At the very best it has worked poorly on established plots and not at all trying to establish new ones.

I am not disputing the pros of no till nor am I arguing with anyone who has had success with it. All I'm saying is that I've heard all the pros of no till and cons of tilling, and with a real effort to realize them myself I have not been able to see either. Tilling works very well for me and no till does not. It obviously works better for others and that's great. But for me tilling is still king.

 

[BSK]

I'll play devils advocate and say till baby till! I've given an honest multiple year effort to no till throw & mow, and have nothing but years of mostly failed plots and a shed full of chemicals to show for it. At the very best it has worked poorly on established plots and not at all trying to establish new ones.

I am not disputing the pros of no till nor am I arguing with anyone who has had success with it. All I'm saying is that I've heard all the pros of no till and cons of tilling, and with a real effort to realize them myself I have not been able to see either. Tilling works very well for me and no till does not. It obviously works better for others and that's great. But for me tilling is still king.

I think a lot depends on initial soil quality and location. I've got years of no-till, followed by years of tilling, and then going back to different version of no-tilling experience. However, I'm working with a particular type of soil: ridge-top locations, very dry, very thin, very poor, very rocky soils. In that situation, the right style of no-till definitely works better for summer crops. The problem is dry periods. Tilled soil will evaporate soil moisture very quickly. In tilled soil, I would go from total water saturation of 6-8" deep to experiencing crop failure after just 3-4 weeks of hot, sunny weather with no rain. Not the case with the right no-till.

Fall planting have been more hit or miss depending on soil prep. In years with adequate fall moisture (which we haven't seen for several years), tilling produced spectacularly successful plots, with far less weed competition and lower seed costs (no-till requires higher seeding rates). On the other hand, the fall months are traditionally our driest months, and they can fail very quickly due to soil moisture loss. Below is a picture of one of my tilled plots in 2020, a year with good fall rainfall. It was tilled and planted in mid-August. The Buckwheat (and crimson clover and wheat underneath) are doing spectacularly by late September, with little weed competition.

But again, it really comes down to soil quality and location. If I were working with better, deeper soils than I have, tilling might end up being the right choice.

 

[Ski]

I think a lot depends on initial soil quality and location. I've got years of no-till, followed by years of tilling, and then going back to different version of no-tilling experience. However, I'm working with a particular type of soil: ridge-top locations, very dry, very thin, very poor, very rocky soils. In that situation, the right style of no-till definitely works better for summer crops. The problem is dry periods. Tilled soil will evaporate soil moisture very quickly. In tilled soil, I would go from total water saturation of 6-8" deep to experiencing crop failure after just 3-4 weeks of hot, sunny weather with no rain. Not the case with the right no-till.

Fall planting have been more hit or miss depending on soil prep. In years with adequate fall moisture (which we haven't seen for several years), tilling produced spectacularly successful plots, with far less weed competition and lower seed costs (no-till requires higher seeding rates). On the other hand, the fall months are traditionally our driest months, and they can fail very quickly due to soil moisture loss. Below is a picture of one of my tilled plots in 2020, a year with good fall rainfall. It was tilled and planted in mid-August. The Buckwheat (and crimson clover and wheat underneath) are doing spectacularly by late September, with little weed competition.

But again, it really comes down to soil quality and location. If I were working with better, deeper soils than I have, tilling might end up being the right choice.

Yeah my plots are in big woods but not on top. They're either on shelves or in the bottoms. Soil isn't deep in any of them before hitting hard clay but I've not had any real issues with topsoil drying out.

The no till stuff just hasn't produced. I sure wanted it to and boy have I tried. But it doesn't seem to be in the cards for my place.

 

[Bgoodman30]

I'll play devils advocate and say till baby till! I've given an honest multiple year effort to no till throw & mow, and have nothing but years of mostly failed plots and a shed full of chemicals to show for it. At the very best it has worked poorly on established plots and not at all trying to establish new ones.

I am not disputing the pros of no till nor am I arguing with anyone who has had success with it. All I'm saying is that I've heard all the pros of no till and cons of tilling, and with a real effort to realize them myself I have not been able to see either. Tilling works very well for me and no till does not. It obviously works better for others and that's great. But for me tilling is still king.

Honestly just want to see dirt on these fields that I have never have before. Also tired of those god awful ankle breaking sapling stems and want to get rid of them more than anything!

 

[BSK]

They look beautiful when they're freshly tilled!

 

[megalomaniac]

Honestly just want to see dirt on these fields that I have never have before. Also tired of those god awful ankle breaking sapling stems and want to get rid of them more than anything!

The key is you HAVE to get rid of the woody growth, or you aren't going to be doing anything there.

Remedy (triclopyr) is going to be your new best friend to do that. Hit it hard before you lime. If you want the grasses to die, add roundup to the Remedy.

Remedy has a 2 week soil residual in my experience... (label says 3-4 weeks), so be sure to plan ahead to nuke the trash well before you plant this fall....

If it were me, I'd nuke the crap out of it early May, lime and broadcast a ton of sorgham and buckwheat into the dying woody stuff and just forget about it the rest of the summer. Then I'd come back with the bushhog and cut down the standing dead woody stuff and any sorgham that grew. Any buckwheat will reseed itself then, plus put down a ton of cereal grains, clover, and brassicas.

Don't expect a miracle in the first year, it will take a couple of years, but I believe you will accomplish your goal.

 

[backyardtndeer]

establishing spring planted clover can be tough.

100 percent agree. Fall plantings for clover just work so much better. Spring plantings can work, but often end up with a lot of invasive plants that take hold too quick.

 

[BSK]

To add to what mega and backyardtndeer posted, I've found establishing (getting good ag plant growth) in a new plot in summer is much more difficult than establishing a new plot in fall. In fall, the normal growing season is coming to an end, so weed and sapling growth are almost over. Spraying in early fall, then planting, will give you a decent crop stand. Trying to spray in spring and get good crop growth the first summer usually ends up with some ag growth, but a lot of weeds/grasses coming back from the seed bank.

The one caveat to that is if you wanted to grow Sunn Hemp the first summer. It outgrows everything and will grow in poor soils. However, if you grow Sunn Hemp, you should NOT plan on tilling that soil for a couple of years after growing and mowing it.

 

[Hunter0678]

To add to what mega and backyardtndeer posted, I've found establishing (getting good ag plant growth) in a new plot in summer is much more difficult than establishing a new plot in fall. In fall, the normal growing season is coming to an end, so weed and sapling growth are almost over. Spraying in early fall, then planting, will give you a decent crop stand. Trying to spray in spring and get good crop growth the first summer usually ends up with some ag growth, but a lot of weeds/grasses coming back from the seed bank.

The one caveat to that is if you wanted to grow Sunn Hemp the first summer. It outgrows everything and will grow in poor soils. However, if you grow Sunn Hemp, you should NOT plan on tilling that soil for a couple of years after growing and mowing it.

BSK, Im curious about your comment regarding not tilling for a few years after planting Sun Hemp. I met with a national rep for Whitetail institute a few weeks back and I ended up with quite a few bags of thier products to plant, one of them being sun hemp. As I understand its a very stalky plant that stands well even through the winter and is used for screening/cover.

I'll have this sun hemp planted in a few different places on my place in Lincoln county along with their other products as trials. I have quite a bit of equipment at my disposal and while I have no intentions of bush hogging down the SH after season in most areas there is one area in a field will be looking to re-seeding or planting something different in for the following season.

Im guessing your statement about not tilling is in regards to the left over stalks taking a long time to break down, right?

 

[BSK]

BSK, Im curious about your comment regarding not tilling for a few years after planting Sun Hemp. I met with a national rep for Whitetail institute a few weeks back and I ended up with quite a few bags of thier products to plant, one of them being sun hemp. As I understand its a very stalky plant that stands well even through the winter and is used for screening/cover.

I'll have this sun hemp planted in a few different places on my place in Lincoln county along with their other products as trials. I have quite a bit of equipment at my disposal and while I have no intentions of bush hogging down the SH after season in most areas there is one area in a field will be looking to re-seeding or planting something different in for the following season.

Im guessing your statement about not tilling is in regards to the left over stalks taking a long time to break down, right?

Correct. Hemp has been used for millennia for making rope. Its internal fibers make rope almost as strong as steel cable. And it doesn't break down quickly at all! Now I planted a stand far thicker than most would recommend, but I wanted maximum green manure out of the crop. I planted it in a freshly bulldozed plot that was very acidic red clay, and it grew like crazy. But 4 years later, and I'm still running into bundles of those fibers! They will bind up machinery like you wouldn't believe. It's like running into loose spools of wire!

Fantastic green manure for those intending to do throw-and-mow planting. But tilling afterwards? I would recommend against it.