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Phenotypical differences in mature bucks…

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Catmans thread got me thinking. Since, as hunters, we most often evaluate antler and physical /structural characteristics in deer to assess age. I think we assume that their are certain norms in place as to how deer look and develop with the passing of time. When we kill a deer we oogle over the rack and the neck and the weight of the animals and make assumptions about maturity. My question is, are deer like people in the fact that age, breakdown, add muscle, hold muscle, loose muscle at different rates. Or are they all relatively the same in those regards, assuming similar levels of health/ nutrition. Are there physical superior (not antler) specimens like hershel walker strolling around that will look like 5.5 yr old at 2.5 and are there Pee Wee Hermans around that will look like yearlings at 7.5. Just curious as to your thoughts
 
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Jerome Bettis and JJ Watt are human anomalies. Big, strong, fast outliers that towered over their peers even at an early age. I look at big bodied big antlered deer the same way. They're 1 in 10,000. Carl Lewis is 60 yrs old and can probably still run faster than any of us ever could even in our prime.
 
I think there is great potential for variances, especially when you take into account that when Tennessee started their deer reintroduction, that there were multiple subspecies in that distribution. A borealis or Dakota deer is going to have a much more heavy body than a Virgina or Texas subspecies.

Our deer in this state are a mix of subspecies, but genetically, they can have broad differences based on which of those subspecies they are most genetically close to.
 
Different gene pools and different individual deer both come into play. That old buck I shot was not unusually small for that area. Now if I had shot him in Williamson county he would have been a midget compared to most mature deer in Williamson county. They're just a lot bigger here. The 3 year old I shot here in Williamson was bigger and still had a lot of growing left to do. His head was like a horse compared the the old buck. But that's typical for the area. He was above average rack wise for a 3 year old, but not at all uncommon.
 
I never worried about the size or age of a deer. Most times I have no idea how many points it has until I get to it. If I am to keep the deer, then I just make sure it's out of spots, if it's going to a friend, I want it to be heavy enough to be worth the processing fee. Having said that, I do get curious about the methods of aging deer, both by jaw or on the hoof, but it won't change what I harvest each year. I have noticed that deer, even just across the river, can have differing body size, so there must be more to it. Heck, even at Ft Campbell the deer can vary widely from area to area, with the biggest and oldest being in the impact areas.
 
I think absolutely yes they vary to a great degree in size and stature for a plethora of different reasons. These animals are something else…we're so fortunate to be able to freely pursue them in this country. I watched an old Fred Bear video where he was hunting somewhere in India and it was against the law to hunt the "Maharajas" animals without his permission…and apparently it's harder to get his permission to hunt game there than on a nice farm in Franklin here in good ole Tennessee….
 
There are definitely both ends of the spectrum. Mature bucks in my area average 135 to 150 lbs. I killed a buck last year the day after Christmas at last light. I couldn't tell a whole lot about his rack and body due to it starting to get dark in the woods. I made the decision to shoot mainly based on his posture and wariness as he eased over the hill. When I got to him, I walked up on a 100 lb deer that had about a 100" rack. I was instantly kicking myself, but he just looked odd to me. Granted it was post rut and he was ran down but still just a small deer. He also still had some dried velvet on the tips of his antlers. When I pulled the jawbone, he had uneven wear but I was confident in 3.5 plus. I posted on here, and the consensus was 4.5. I know that you can't age a dead deer, but he was definitely small for a mature buck.
 
Every age-class of buck in a given location will display a bell-shaped curve when any one feature is measured and the entire cohort is displayed. Outliers will always exist. I've seen a bunch of them too. But MOST fall into what would be considered "normal" although even within "normal" there is considerable variation. Now when you start comparing same-age deer in different geographic locations, all bets are off. Northern subspecies deer are much bigger and more muscular than same-age bucks in the MidSouth. And MidSouth bucks are much larger and more muscular than same-age bucks in the Deep South, especially coastal whitetails.
 
Here's a prime example of an outlier. How old is the below buck? I had him pegged as an average-bodied, but far below average antlered 2 1/2 year-old. Once he was killed, and I pulled the jaw, his toothwear showed he was AT MINIMUM, 4 1/2 years old. That kind of an outlier blows my mind.
 

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I was talking to a colleague who works with a deer herd in southern AL. He was showing me trail-camera pictures he was really proud of. He showed me a picture and said, "Check this guy out!" I looked at the picture and saw an average 3 1/2 year-old buck for TN. I told him, "Nice 3 1/2 year-old." He stared at me like I was crazy and finally blurted out, "That buck is 7 1/2 years old!" For his area, that's what a 7 1/2 year-old buck looks like.
 
Ran a late summer photo census for a client that uses trough feeders to draw deer for censusing. This provided a unique opportunity to compare bucks side by side when a bachelor group of 4-7 bucks would all be at the feeder at the same time. What was fascinating was how some bucks that gave every indication of being the same age varied in their height. Some 3 1/2 year-old bucks absolutely towered over other 3 1/2 year-old bucks, and I mean these bucks were a full foot taller at the shoulder, but gave every appearance in body conformation they were 3 1/2 just like their shorter bachelor group mates. I bet the difference in body weight would be shocking.
 
BSK said:
Ran a late summer photo census for a client that uses trough feeders to draw deer for censusing. This provided a unique opportunity to compare bucks side by side when a bachelor group of 4-7 bucks would all be at the feeder at the same time. What was fascinating was how some bucks that gave every indication of being the same age varied in their height. Some 3 1/2 year-old bucks absolutely towered over other 3 1/2 year-old bucks, and I mean these bucks were a full foot taller at the shoulder, but gave every appearance in body conformation they were 3 1/2 just like their shorter bachelor group mates. I bet the difference in body weight would be shocking.
Click to expand...

That is fascinating
 
Would most of this be due to TN's natural herd being mixed with deer introduced from the TWRA reintroduction of deer from different states. Let's just leave food and all that aside. Just take chuck swan for instance. Some areas within the place have smaller bodied deer. Then go to another part within chick swan and they are bigger. Why would they all not have mixed together and be the same size weight and body throughout the whole area. I know they wouldn't be exactly the same. If you get what I'm saying.
 
I have hunted whitetails for 40 years.
I regularly hunt 3 States a year. And several different counties and WMA's within Tennessee (my home State).
I typically sit a stand between 70 and 100 times per year total. And spend much more time before and after the season looking at trail cam pics, through binoculars, through the windshield, and on the ground scouting, most on public lands.
And I can tell you this with great certainty.
As far as age is concerned let's be honest with each other. NOBODY CARES when the buck is a 3 year old if it looks like the MILO HANSEN buck (arguably a 3.5 year old)
NOBODY!

So in the end, if you wish to live to be and OLD buck, wish to be a healthy deer, with very small antlers. and long legs, because most likely everyone will think you are young and probably will give you a pass.

And if you guys don't believe me about how difficult it is to make "blanket" statements about buck age...try to age a doe on the hoof. FORGET IT!

Some of the oldest does I've killed were tooth aged 4.5 plus and had tiny bodies.

I'll never forget one was a 4.5 + year old AEDC deer that dressed 58 pounds.

And yet I've killed and seen several bucks that dressed over 150 that were young looking!

I do believe there are fawns, and 1.5 year olds that look and act certain ways that are clues to their age. But teaching how to spot these characteristics would be very difficult.

I've also seen gray muzzled, scarred and fat, saggy belly and short legged very old looking deer that biologists at the check station declared were 3.5 year old deer!

Having trail cam pics of deer with distinct characteristics for several years is hard to beat. But even this can be a year or two off.

The Craziest deer kill ever was actually a buck we KNOW was at least 3.5. He actually had a better rack at 1.5 than at 3.5!

Everyone seems to be so hung up on age. In reality, (let's face it) it's antler score!
Really big racked deer, even if they are relatively young, rarely get a pass on public.

So just try to enjoy your hunt. Enjoy the whole hunting process. Kill (legally) what makes you happy.

Quit worrying about what other hunters do or think because they have their own agenda, as they should.

And above all remember this, deer hunting in itself is NOT an exact science. Even though some would want you to believe it is. Very little of the information in and around the process of the hunt "fits into any kind of box".

Even though "celebrity you tubers" would lead you to believe that they have answers, they probably do not have near as many as they think they do!
In fact, there is probably MUCH MORE MISinformation on youtube than solid good information.

And what hunters do in one area (of the United States, or County, or area in that county) may or may not have anything to do with the herd your hunting!
 
102 said:
I have hunted whitetails for 40 years.
I regularly hunt 3 States a year. And several different counties and WMA's within Tennessee (my home State).
I typically sit a stand between 70 and 100 times per year total. And spend much more time before and after the season looking at trail cam pics, through binoculars, through the windshield, and on the ground scouting, most on public lands.
And I can tell you this with great certainty.
As far as age is concerned let's be honest with each other. NOBODY CARES when the buck is a 3 year old if it looks like the MILO HANSEN buck (arguably a 3.5 year old)
NOBODY!

So in the end, if you wish to live to be and OLD buck, wish to be a healthy deer, with very small antlers. and long legs, because most likely everyone will think you are young and probably will give you a pass.

And if you guys don't believe me about how difficult it is to make "blanket" statements about buck age...try to age a doe on the hoof. FORGET IT!

Some of the oldest does I've killed were tooth aged 4.5 plus and had tiny bodies.

I'll never forget one was a 4.5 + year old AEDC deer that dressed 58 pounds.

And yet I've killed and seen several bucks that dressed over 150 that were young looking!

I do believe there are fawns, and 1.5 year olds that look and act certain ways that are clues to their age. But teaching how to spot these characteristics would be very difficult.

I've also seen gray muzzled, scarred and fat, saggy belly and short legged very old looking deer that biologists at the check station declared were 3.5 year old deer!

Having trail cam pics of deer with distinct characteristics for several years is hard to beat. But even this can be a year or two off.

The Craziest deer kill ever was actually a buck we KNOW was at least 3.5. He actually had a better rack at 1.5 than at 3.5!

Everyone seems to be so hung up on age. In reality, (let's face it) it's antler score!
Really big racked deer, even if they are relatively young, rarely get a pass on public.

So just try to enjoy your hunt. Enjoy the whole hunting process. Kill (legally) what makes you happy.

Quit worrying about what other hunters do or think because they have their own agenda, as they should.

And above all remember this, deer hunting in itself is NOT an exact science. Even though some would want you to believe it is. Very little of the information in and around the process of the hunt "fits into any kind of box".

Even though "celebrity you tubers" would lead you to believe that they have answers, they probably do not have near as many as they think they do!
In fact, there is probably MUCH MORE MISinformation on youtube than solid good information.

And what hunters do in one area (of the United States, or County, or area in that county) may or may not have anything to do with the herd your hunting!
Click to expand...
i dont hunt chuck swan and i have never seen a deer loke the milo hansen buck. But i can guarantee you that i pass many of bucks 125 and up each yr because im afraid theybare 3.5 or 4.5. I the video and photo documentation of these encounters. On my farms age is the biggest factor, antlers are factor. The thrill of killing a nice buck is not as great for me as the disappointment of taking one before its time.
 
red blood...
if a 3.5 year old 190" BOONER walks by within range...you will not care at all about age.
Or else you simply aren't aware how incredibly RARE that class animal is!
So it's all relative!
On private lands that are intensively managed for older aged class deer...then obviously younger deer get a pass.
But NOBODY should ever be expected to pass a 190" free range buck on a relatively small (less than 3000 acres) land especially if it is surrounded by public.

And I have never seen anyone do this!

And again..."before it's time" is a very "fluid" concept. It is very difficult to know for certain what age deer you are looking at, especially during the rut when bucks travel miles. And you may be looking at a buck for the first time ever trying to decide wether a young looking 150" buck is 3.5, 4.5, or 8.5 years old! Because it is VERY hard to tell.

Shoot what makes you happy!

Merry Christmas!
 
102 said:
I have hunted whitetails for 40 years.
I regularly hunt 3 States a year. And several different counties and WMA's within Tennessee (my home State).
I typically sit a stand between 70 and 100 times per year total. And spend much more time before and after the season looking at trail cam pics, through binoculars, through the windshield, and on the ground scouting, most on public lands.
And I can tell you this with great certainty.
As far as age is concerned let's be honest with each other. NOBODY CARES when the buck is a 3 year old if it looks like the MILO HANSEN buck (arguably a 3.5 year old)
NOBODY!

So in the end, if you wish to live to be and OLD buck, wish to be a healthy deer, with very small antlers. and long legs, because most likely everyone will think you are young and probably will give you a pass.

And if you guys don't believe me about how difficult it is to make "blanket" statements about buck age...try to age a doe on the hoof. FORGET IT!

Some of the oldest does I've killed were tooth aged 4.5 plus and had tiny bodies.

I'll never forget one was a 4.5 + year old AEDC deer that dressed 58 pounds.

And yet I've killed and seen several bucks that dressed over 150 that were young looking!

I do believe there are fawns, and 1.5 year olds that look and act certain ways that are clues to their age. But teaching how to spot these characteristics would be very difficult.

I've also seen gray muzzled, scarred and fat, saggy belly and short legged very old looking deer that biologists at the check station declared were 3.5 year old deer!

Having trail cam pics of deer with distinct characteristics for several years is hard to beat. But even this can be a year or two off.

The Craziest deer kill ever was actually a buck we KNOW was at least 3.5. He actually had a better rack at 1.5 than at 3.5!

Everyone seems to be so hung up on age. In reality, (let's face it) it's antler score!
Really big racked deer, even if they are relatively young, rarely get a pass on public.

So just try to enjoy your hunt. Enjoy the whole hunting process. Kill (legally) what makes you happy.

Quit worrying about what other hunters do or think because they have their own agenda, as they should.

And above all remember this, deer hunting in itself is NOT an exact science. Even though some would want you to believe it is. Very little of the information in and around the process of the hunt "fits into any kind of box".

Even though "celebrity you tubers" would lead you to believe that they have answers, they probably do not have near as many as they think they do!
In fact, there is probably MUCH MORE MISinformation on youtube than solid good information.

And what hunters do in one area (of the United States, or County, or area in that county) may or may not have anything to do with the herd your hunting!
Click to expand...

BSKs comment earlier really helped me wrap my mind around this whole topic:

"Every age-class of buck in a given location will display a bell-shaped curve when any one feature is measured and the entire cohort is displayed. Outliers will always exist. I've seen a bunch of them too. But MOST fall into what would be considered "normal" although even within "normal" there is considerable variation"

We've seen the outliers....it's going to happen....but I don't think we should just throw our hands in the air and say there is now way to manage by age.....let's back up and look at the greatest hunting destinations for whitetail deer....MOST of them are managed by AGE not antler size.

Shooting by antler size is pretty much what the majority of hunters do now. And I fault nobody...shoot what meets your goals....but for the topic of deer management...if we shoot every really nice 2½ or 3½ year old then our odds of killing a big mature buck drop drastically....there is no denying that fact.... again...there will always be outliers ...but the majority of the time when you see a truly mature buck 4½ + year old...you know there is something different about that deer......but by all means....i agree....if I see a 150" to 190" 3½ year old it's hammer time!!
 
I am definitely no deer biologist but I would presume there are phenotypical differences in deer but not to the degree we see them in humans.

Deer don't have a choice to eat potato chips and sit on the couch all day. Their environment causes them to stay productive and nature is not kind to those who are weak.
 
Back in the late 80's and early to mid 90's, I bow hunted Ft. Campbell a lot. I noticed several things about the bucks in those areas, mainly that they resembled Texas and Oklahoma deer, which in my estimation are the most beautiful.

Dark racks, short dished faces, compact bodies, and a fully mature buck would seldom dress more than 140 pounds. The bucks from the northern areas of the Base showed more Northern traits.

There was a world of difference looking at those compared to the bucks from the southeastern side of Montgomery county where I grew up. Those bucks had longer, mule like heads, white or yellow racks, and long Roman noses, and long, gangly bodies. Not saying they didn't excite me, but they put the "UG" in the "LY" compared to those Ft. Campbell bucks.

They were also harder to judge age because of those very noticeable traits, to me anyway. And I still notice those same traits today in the bucks that my friends kill from those areas.
 
DoubleRidge,
Bryan (BSK) is an absolute treasure trough of information. He and I have had MANY online and email exchanges over the decades.
I RARELY disagree with him. And now is certainly no exception.

But I truly believe that MANY hunters (probably not many participators of this conversation) try to put deer "in a box" when it comes to aging bucks on the hoof. And MOST use antler characteristics as an indication of maturity.

I meet a huge cross section of hunters at varying levels of experience. And quite honestly, most are really bad at age judgement.
Either with a jawbone in hand or on the hoof.

Arguably the enemy of managing a herd of whitetails is a "Trophy hunters" mindset who focuses on antlers and rarely kills a female when populations dictate that they should.
I see this every year and it seems it's getting worse.

Putting together a management plan to reach certain goals within a population on a certain property is very rewarding and fun. As long as all participants are on the same page. If I had a property that needed to put together a plan I would definitely seek BSK guidance.

But I do not. SO I mostly hunt permission property and mostly public.

Heavily hunted public land deer with NO MANAGEMENT plan and brown is down mentality makes for some very educated (hunter avoidance experts) DEER!

I have hunted private land that was also hunted heavily and these animals were also tough.

A trophy is and should be in the eye of the hunter. Some of the most meaningful deer I've killed were not "trophies" in anyones eyes but mine. It's more about the hunt for me.

I've killed some GIANTS. But in all honesty they were LARGE targets. COULD NOT carry a Broadhead wound very far at all. And were so rut crazed that a few actually watched me draw my bow and settle my pin.

I rarely have a doe come in with floppy ears. Most are WIRED! And even on double lung shots often run 200 yards!
 

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