The end of things …

[woodyard]

Please tell me that's exaggerated. 80-100 deer sightings in one day is an incredibly condensed herd. It's hard for me to even imagine seeing that many deer in a single hunt.

We are not near ames but in Weakley Co. Back in the 70s and early 80s it was not uncommon to see 40-50 deer on our farm. A 180 acre farm that I would ride the three wheeler from one side to the other just to count them a lot of days. I don't recall ever going hunting and not seeing several deer and rarely ever hunting longer than 3 hours at a time. This was of course when shotguns only were allowed here and before the doe slaughter. There was a lot of shooting but not much hitting back then with the bird guns. Rifles were finally allowed in the late 80s or early 90s. Go deer hunting for 2-3 hours and then go back home and get the bird dog and hunt quail the rest of the day if you did not have a buck to process.

 

[TheLBLman]

We are not near ames but in Weakley Co. Back in the 70s and early 80s it was not uncommon to see 40-50 deer on our farm. . . . . . This was of course when shotguns only were allowed here and before the doe slaughter. There was a lot of shooting but not much hitting back then with the bird guns. . . . . . Go deer hunting for 2-3 hours and then go back home and get the bird dog and hunt quail the rest of the day if you did not have a buck to process.

THAT was exactly my experience for most of the 1970's in Weakley!
Wasn't even an open deer season in Obion County & many others in West TN.

Believe it was 1971 when I killed my first buck with my 20 ga Remington Model 11 using slugs thru my "bird" barrel. I had another "full choke" barrel for squirrels & ducks.

As far as "not hitting much" went, things changed dramatically for me in 1976 when I got my Browning Sweet 16 with a full set of barrels (cylinder, improved cylinder, modified, full, AND a "Buck Special").

With my "Buck Special" barrel, I increased my high-probability range from about 45 yds to 110 yds. And going to the Brenneke slugs made it even better. I killed one buck with it at @ 150 yds.

Did a lot of barrel changing back in those days, sometimes 3 times a day, as there were no screw-in choke tubes.

Back then, opening day of deer season was a bigger deal than it is today. But the opening day of squirrel season was a bigger deal for more hunters than the deer opening. And seemed nearly everybody had a "bird" dog, whether it would hunt or not.

Things sure have changed, and not all for the better.

After the physical "check in" began, checked in many a deer at "Sammy's Bait Shop" near where you live.

 

[7mmWSM]

Please tell me that's exaggerated. 80-100 deer sightings in one day is an incredibly condensed herd. It's hard for me to even imagine seeing that many deer in a single hunt.

We had a lease that joined Ames on the south side. If you didn't see 40-50 deer an evening then deer weren't moving. I remember seeing 21 bucks on opening day one year. But very common to see up to 8 bucks at every sitting.
I think the biggest reason our deer numbers are down is TWRA. They let you hunt til the end of March and beg the farmers to get depredation permits to shoot deer all summer. In Fayette and Hardeman counties I've heard friends say the GW's are calling them trying to give permits for the extended season. Now in CWD zone for every 2 does you get tested you get a buck tag. And a positive buck gets you another buck tag. Not only are you then wiping your bucks and does out your doing away with next years fawns as well. I know a guy here that's killed 4 bucks so far with 3 alone this week. Instead of TWRA helping us they're hurting us. Instead of office people telling us what to do I'd rather have boots on the ground type people like us all have a say so and not treated as sit down and shut up type of person they want.
As far as Ames goes in my opinion. It's was mostly self inflicted. Management wanted doe numbers killed down to almost nothing. Now any buck is legal. Over time all that ads up. CWD ain't killing the deer out. TWRA is. I'm telling you it ain't all gloom and doom like some want you to believe. We still kill mature bucks. So what if one test positive for CWD? CWD may have been around for 30 yrs who knows? They just started testing. I'm sure all of us in that area have eaten plenty of them. Truthfully I find less dead deer than I did before it was brought to our attention. Ask TWRA how many dead deer have they found that died from CWD???
Sorry for the rant. But I feel like the state has let this get out of hand. For those of y'all that believe it then that's fine. I'd just quit hunting if I were you. More deer for the rest of us to enjoy.

 

[MUP]

Please tell me that's exaggerated. 80-100 deer sightings in one day is an incredibly condensed herd. It's hard for me to even imagine seeing that many deer in a single hunt.

Several years ago here, I remember folks talking about seeing that many deer in a sitting out on the West end of the state. I replied to the thread that there are times that I've hunted a couple days in a row here in the mtns of East Tn without seeing a single deer, and was basically called an amateur, that I wasn't doing something right if I wasn't seeing any deer.

 

[Don'tDrinkTinks]

I only deer hunt two weekends in KY now. I lease a flooded rice field in AR to duck hunt so it keeps me outdoors. I don't ever see myself deer hunting in TN ever again.

 

[DMD]

Several years ago here, I remember folks talking about seeing that many deer in a sitting out on the West end of the state. I replied to the thread that there are times that I've hunted a couple days in a row here in the mtns of East Tn without seeing a single deer, and was basically called an amateur, that I wasn't doing something right if I wasn't seeing any deer.

I've went as many as 11 hunts in a row without seeing a deer. Probably longer than that years ago... just didn't count them up. And.. when I say hunts, that's typically half days.. dark till noon-ish. Too depressing I've hunted some places so barren, deer would get spooked if they saw another deer.

 

[BSK]

Several years ago here, I remember folks talking about seeing that many deer in a sitting out on the West end of the state. I replied to the thread that there are times that I've hunted a couple days in a row here in the mtns of East Tn without seeing a single deer, and was basically called an amateur, that I wasn't doing something right if I wasn't seeing any deer.

Reminds me of how people kept telling me how lucky I was to hunt intensively managed private property where monster bucks were behind every tree, and killing one was as simple as picking out the one you want. Then they saw my data on how few deer we actually see while on stand. Then many of the same hunters said they would never hunt a property where deer/buck sightings were so difficult to come by!

Average hunting time required to see a deer, any deer: 2.9 hours
Average hunting time required to see an antlered buck of any age: 8.6 hours
Average hunting time required to see a buck 2 1/2 years old or older: 19.2 hours
Average hunting time required to see a buck 3 1/2 years old or older: 68.5 hours

 

[TheLBLman]

I only deer hunt two weekends in KY now. I lease a flooded rice field in AR to duck hunt so it keeps me outdoors. I don't ever see myself deer hunting in TN ever again.

A very fast growing segment of accomplished & avid TN deer hunters are doing exactly this, although many are choosing many other states, not just KY for deer or AR for ducks.

Middlemen leasing agents accelerated this process with high lease prices on mediocre TN deer-hunting tracts.

The dirty little secret is that many other states' public lands offer a better opportunity for a 150-plus-class whitetail than most of TN's best-managed large acreage private hunting lands. This would include the 18,000-acrea Ames Plantation, which has produced how many bucks over 150 in the past 15 years of "intense trophy buck management"?

And I don't mean to sound like I'm picking on or disparaging Ames, as am just stating this to point out the reality you cannot grow a 150-class buck behind every tree on mediocre lands in TN, when it can't even be done at such a fabulous place as Ames.

 

[MUP]

Reminds me of how people kept telling me how lucky I was to hunt intensively managed private property where monster bucks were behind every tree, and killing one was as simple as picking out the one you want. Then they saw my data on how few deer we actually see while on stand. Then many of the same hunters said they would never hunt a property where deer/buck sightings were so difficult to come by!

Average hunting time required to see a deer, any deer: 2.9 hours
Average hunting time required to see an antlered buck of any age: 8.6 hours
Average hunting time required to see a buck 2 1/2 years old or older: 19.2 hours
Average hunting time required to see a buck 3 1/2 years old or older: 68.5 hours

That looks very familiar.

 

[DoubleRidge]

I think the biggest reason our deer numbers are down is TWRA. They let you hunt til the end of March and beg the farmers to get depredation permits to shoot deer all summer. In Fayette and Hardeman counties I've heard friends say the GW's are calling them trying to give permits for the extended season. Now in CWD zone for every 2 does you get tested you get a buck tag. And a positive buck gets you another buck tag. Not only are you then wiping your bucks and does out your doing away with next years fawns as well. I know a guy here that's killed 4 bucks so far with 3 alone this week.

Pure insanity...knowing what we know now why is TWRA managing this way? Rifle in archery with certain areas open till the end of March...ridiculous...kill two does and earn a buck tag...disastrous for the herd...we already know this? Following these practices it's no wonder people are seeing less deer.

 

[1 good shot]

Please tell me that's exaggerated. 80-100 deer sightings in one day is an incredibly condensed herd. It's hard for me to even imagine seeing that many deer in a single hunt.

I'm sure we were seeing some of the same deer multiple times, but no, it was not unusual. We were way overpopulated

 

[MidTennFisher]

Pure insanity...knowing what we know now why is TWRA managing this way? Rifle in archery with certain areas open till the end of March...ridiculous...kill two does and earn a buck tag...disastrous for the herd...we already know this? Following these practices it's no wonder people are seeing less deer.

I really hate it for West TN having to deal with such stupidity in the name of "management" of CWD. Especially now that we know some shady crap was going on within TWRA as far as CWD data goes.

Don't they get a lot more funding if they report more cases?

 

[DoubleRidge]

And I don't mean to sound like I'm picking on or disparaging Ames, as am just stating this to point out the reality you cannot grow a 150-class buck behind every tree on mediocre lands in TN, when it can't even be done at such a fabulous place as Ames.

But to be fair...you cant grow 150 class bucks behind every tree anywhere...even in Iowa...but your point is clear that while not impossible...its difficult in TN to manage for 150+ bucks...but it is possible to manage for 130" with opportunities at 140" deer from time to time...and there are many on here who can testify to that...and occasionally a 150+ buck will be taken on managed TN lands...thats fact.
But I understand your point on antler high grading and how on public land in Missouri, Ohio, Kentucky and Illinois that your odds at a 150+ buck may be better than what we have in TN...but when I live in TN and manage land in TN and do habitat projects in TN and have legitimate opportunities at 130" and occasionally a 140" bucks in TN...this meets my goals...Tennessee isnt Iowa...but it also is capable of producing plenty of bucks that meet "most" hunters expectations...manage for a healthy age structure and try to kill the most mature bucks avaliable and the inches of antler will be what they are.

 

[DoubleRidge]

I really hate it for West TN having to deal with such stupidity in the name of "management" of CWD. Especially now that we know some shady crap was going on within TWRA as far as CWD data goes.

Don't they get a lot more funding if they report more cases?

Not sure on the funding? But the more you learn about how CWD is being managed the more disturbing it is...CWD isnt new? Not sure why TN is trying something that has already been proven not to work? They even say that we cant kill it, we cant stop the spread, we just hope to slow the spread.
Until what? a cure? Immunity is developed? Slaughtering the herd isnt going to help develop any immunity?...the whole conversation is just frustrating...as for West TN...lay off the does, stop issuing extra buck tags, return to a normal season and give the deer an opportunity to rebound...my goodness.

 

[MidTennFisher]

Not sure on the funding? But the more you learn about how CWD is being managed the more disturbing it is...CWD isnt new? Not sure why TN is trying something that has already been proven not to work? They even say that we cant kill it, we cant stop the spread, we just hope to slow the spread.
Until what? a cure? Immunity is developed? Slaughtering the herd isnt going to help develop any immunity?...the whole conversation is just frustrating...as for West TN...lay off the does, stop issuing extra buck tags, return to a normal season and give the deer an opportunity to rebound...my goodness.

Slow the spread.... haha I remember a complete disaster that stretched 2+ years that was said to be based on that intention. Of course, that was a big political dumpster fire and totally unrelated. But it's just funny you mention that.

I agree 100% that this absolute slaughtering of a deer herd is doing more damage to the deer population in one season than CWD could do in probably 50 years. You all need to fight against this and fight hard or before you know it, it will be impossible to remove the CWD zones. If I still lived in TN, I'd be writing emails to my legislators and see if that goes anywhere. It's a start.

 

[killingtime 41]

Where did the TWRA get the idea that kill em all approach was the best approach. I get it they want to keep it from spreading but is that really possible #1. And if not at what cost will that approach have on the herd overall. I would think that would be the obvious question.

 

[Ski]

Not sure on the funding? But the more you learn about how CWD is being managed the more disturbing it is...CWD isnt new? Not sure why TN is trying something that has already been proven not to work? They even say that we cant kill it, we cant stop the spread, we just hope to slow the spread.
Until what? a cure? Immunity is developed? Slaughtering the herd isnt going to help develop any immunity?...the whole conversation is just frustrating...as for West TN...lay off the does, stop issuing extra buck tags, return to a normal season and give the deer an opportunity to rebound...my goodness.

Until this thread I was in the same thought. Nothing made sense. CWD has been around at least 40yrs, probably forever, and is found in several countries around the northern hemisphere worldwide. It's not killing off animals at a rapid, measurable rate anywhere else but we're supposed to believe that it is in a couple west TN counties? Like most other folks I was calling BS. But this thread has made me raise an eyebrow to something I didn't consider before.

Up until now I was relating west TN to everywhere else. Some places have lots of deer. Some places have few deer. CWD is the same regardless. But then I read reports of just how many deer there were in west TN. Can you imagine seeing upwards of 100 deer in a 3hr sit? One poster claimed 40-50 deer seen in a day on a 180 acre property. That's a herd density of 142 deer/sq mile, or 4.5 deer/acre. It seems ridiculous but I outright asked if it was an exaggeration and it was corroborated by several other posters. There's no reason to think anybody is lying, so the only take away is that there used to be an astronomically high density of deer for a very long time in a relatively small area. Given what we know about how CWD spreads, it's only logical that in an environment like that it would spread like wildfire. And since conditions like that don't exist anywhere else on the planet, CWD hasn't been the big deal that it is there in west TN. It's akin to kids starting back to school in fall. They all get sick because suddenly they're all placed in a confined space together. That high density of individuals rapidly accelerates the spread of a contagen.

Which brings me to TWRA. Until now I have been an outspoken opponent of how they're handling the situation. I couldn't understand such a gross overreaction. Now I do. Drastic times call for drastic measures. Doesn't mean I am now on board with how they're approaching the problem, only that now I finally understand why they're taking such a dramatic approach. The why is what's been missing all this time. Now I get it. Of course they're going to see a gross amplification of what CWD can do because they have a gross amplification of what a typical herd density looks like. Does TWRA deserve criticism for they're handling of CWD? Probably. I think it's fair. I believe they've screwed some things up, and in light of recent legal issues it's plausible they screwed up real bad. But given the unprecidented circumstances I can longer criticize their decisions because they're dealing with a situation nobody aside from fenced deer farms has ever had to deal with before, so there were no examples for them to follow.

So I don't know. I couldn't figure out why west TN was so different, why TWRA was being so extreme when nothing like that was being done anywhere else. Now I know it was because of the population density, and it makes total sense. That would be the only plausible reason to handle things the way TWRA is doing it. And if the core issue that allows CWD to become so prevalent is population density, then wouldn't the logical approach be thinning the herd to more manageable, healthy numbers? I didn't mean to write a novel, just emptying some thoughts into words. I don't have any answers and won't pretend to. Going forward I think i'll withold judgement and just observe.

 

[woodyard]

THAT was exactly my experience for most of the 1970's in Weakley!
Wasn't even an open deer season in Obion County & many others in West TN.

Believe it was 1971 when I killed my first buck with my 20 ga Remington Model 11 using slugs thru my "bird" barrel. I had another "full choke" barrel for squirrels & ducks.

As far as "not hitting much" went, things changed dramatically for me in 1976 when I got my Browning Sweet 16 with a full set of barrels (cylinder, improved cylinder, modified, full, AND a "Buck Special").

With my "Buck Special" barrel, I increased my high-probability range from about 45 yds to 110 yds. And going to the Brenneke slugs made it even better. I killed one buck with it at @ 150 yds.

Did a lot of barrel changing back in those days, sometimes 3 times a day, as there were no screw-in choke tubes.

Back then, opening day of deer season was a bigger deal than it is today. But the opening day of squirrel season was a bigger deal for more hunters than the deer opening. And seemed nearly everybody had a "bird" dog, whether it would hunt or not.

Things sure have changed, and not all for the better.

After the physical "check in" began, checked in many a deer at "Sammy's Bait Shop" near where you live.

I remember one of the first bucks that was killed in our area. My aunt had a brother from up north that came down and shot a nice buck , probably on some of the McCord farms land. I know there was a big crowd of people gathered to see it at their house north of Como. I assume now that he was a deer hunter in MI and had had some experience and killed it in Henry Co because of the shotgun rule.
It is almost comical now thinking about shooting slugs with the bird guns. If you could consistently get it in a 2 ft square you were doing good. Several years latter I got a slug barrel. It was "on" then.
Yes things have sure changed.

 

[Ski]

Where did the TWRA get the idea that kill em all approach was the best approach. I get it they want to keep it from spreading but is that really possible #1. And if not at what cost will that approach have on the herd overall. I would think that would be the obvious question.

If I had to guess I'd say from private fenced deer farms. If CWD is detected in a single animal, every animal on the farm is immediately put down out of caution, even before the detection can be confirmed. It's mandated by law as I understand it, intended to prevent the spread. Sounds a whole lot like what TWRA is going for with the liberal hunting regs. And given the herd density prior to CWD it makes sense. Right, wrong, or indifferent, I'd guess that's where the idea came from.

 

[woodyard]

The herd density in our area for the last several years has been no where near what it was back in 70s and 80s. Liberal doe limits took care of that.I actually think the numbers now are about right.