The end of things …

[7mmWSM]

If I had to guess I'd say from private fenced deer farms. If CWD is detected in a single animal, every animal on the farm is immediately put down out of caution, even before the detection can be confirmed. It's mandated by law as I understand it, intended to prevent the spread. Sounds a whole lot like what TWRA is going for with the liberal hunting regs. And given the herd density prior to CWD it makes sense. Right, wrong, or indifferent, I'd guess that's where the idea came from.

I could maybe understand it some with the shooting more deer if we were finding more deer dead. We shed hunt a lot and more now since dogs are involved. We scout after season in places we never walked before. Honestly in these area and even beside ground zero, Ames we hardly ever find a dead deer. I really believe we were finding more before CWD hit. Deer get sick from things like us humans do. They die of old age and such even with that we hardly find one. Even road kills. But ask TWRA how many dead deer have they found that died from CWD. They can't tell you because it hasn't happened. Our herd didn't die off and be scattered in the fields and woods from CWD for you to see I assure you. They died from TWRA putting a bounty on them. Heck they even have a deal where you kill so many for testing they'll give you a FREE Sportsman License the next year. Ask yourself this, if so many deer are dying from CWD then why ain't you constantly seeing buzzards on your hunting spots circling. You'd have carcasses everywhere. That's not happening here.

 

[DoubleRidge]

Until this thread I was in the same thought. Nothing made sense. CWD has been around at least 40yrs, probably forever, and is found in several countries around the northern hemisphere worldwide. It's not killing off animals at a rapid, measurable rate anywhere else but we're supposed to believe that it is in a couple west TN counties? Like most other folks I was calling BS. But this thread has made me raise an eyebrow to something I didn't consider before.

Up until now I was relating west TN to everywhere else. Some places have lots of deer. Some places have few deer. CWD is the same regardless. But then I read reports of just how many deer there were in west TN. Can you imagine seeing upwards of 100 deer in a 3hr sit? One poster claimed 40-50 deer seen in a day on a 180 acre property. That's a herd density of 142 deer/sq mile, or 4.5 deer/acre. It seems ridiculous but I outright asked if it was an exaggeration and it was corroborated by several other posters. There's no reason to think anybody is lying, so the only take away is that there used to be an astronomically high density of deer for a very long time in a relatively small area. Given what we know about how CWD spreads, it's only logical that in an environment like that it would spread like wildfire. And since conditions like that don't exist anywhere else on the planet, CWD hasn't been the big deal that it is there in west TN. It's akin to kids starting back to school in fall. They all get sick because suddenly they're all placed in a confined space together. That high density of individuals rapidly accelerates the spread of a contagen.

Which brings me to TWRA. Until now I have been an outspoken opponent of how they're handling the situation. I couldn't understand such a gross overreaction. Now I do. Drastic times call for drastic measures. Doesn't mean I am now on board with how they're approaching the problem, only that now I finally understand why they're taking such a dramatic approach. The why is what's been missing all this time. Now I get it. Of course they're going to see a gross amplification of what CWD can do because they have a gross amplification of what a typical herd density looks like. Does TWRA deserve criticism for they're handling of CWD? Probably. I think it's fair. I believe they've screwed some things up, and in light of recent legal issues it's plausible they screwed up real bad. But given the unprecidented circumstances I can longer criticize their decisions because they're dealing with a situation nobody aside from fenced deer farms has ever had to deal with before, so there were no examples for them to follow.

So I don't know. I couldn't figure out why west TN was so different, why TWRA was being so extreme when nothing like that was being done anywhere else. Now I know it was because of the population density, and it makes total sense. That would be the only plausible reason to handle things the way TWRA is doing it. And if the core issue that allows CWD to become so prevalent is population density, then wouldn't the logical approach be thinning the herd to more manageable, healthy numbers? I didn't mean to write a novel, just emptying some thoughts into words. I don't have any answers and won't pretend to. Going forward I think i'll withold judgement and just observe.

I cant imagine any deer herd at 4.5 deer per acre over hundreds of acres?... I would think the habitat would look like a goat pen...and sitting on a powerline, gas line or giant bean field with good optics I'm certain you could run your sighting count up with multiple repeats...but all that aside...you mention understanding the "why" now, as to the approach TWRA is taking....is it to slow the spread or what? Why? Honest question?

 

[Ski]

I could maybe understand it some with the shooting more deer if we were finding more deer dead. We shed hunt a lot and more now since dogs are involved. We scout after season in places we never walked before. Honestly in these area and even beside ground zero, Ames we hardly ever find a dead deer. I really believe we were finding more before CWD hit. Deer get sick from things like us humans do. They die of old age and such even with that we hardly find one. Even road kills. But ask TWRA how many dead deer have they found that died from CWD. They can't tell you because it hasn't happened. Our herd didn't die off and be scattered in the fields and woods from CWD for you to see I assure you. They died from TWRA putting a bounty on them. Heck they even have a deal where you kill so many for testing they'll give you a FREE Sportsman License the next year. Ask yourself this, if so many deer are dying from CWD then why ain't you constantly seeing buzzards on your hunting spots circling. You'd have carcasses everywhere. That's not happening here.

I agree. That's one huge disconnect I've not been able to understand. Where are all the dead deer? Even CWD only makes them vulnerable to die from other causes, they're still dying. Where are the bodies? I've got lots of questions about CWD and how it's being addressed. Time will ultimately tell.

 

[DoubleRidge]

Heck they even have a deal where you kill so many for testing they'll give you a FREE Sportsman License the next year.

Oh me...I'm still sitting here shaking my head...kill more, More, MORE!! And we will cut off the revenue stream and give you a free license...makes sense.

 

[Iglow]

I'm not burnt out or dislike deer hunting anymore, it's still fun to go and see what I'd missed if I'd stayed home, I just don't want to fool with them when they are dead. All the gutting and dragging and processing, I'm getting too old for all that.

 

[BSK]

Where did the TWRA get the idea that kill em all approach was the best approach

From a single, misguided study.

 

[Ski]

I cant imagine any deer herd at 4.5 deer per acre over hundreds of acres?... I would think the habitat would look like a goat pen...and sitting on a powerline, gas line or giant bean field with good optics I'm certain you could run your sighting count up with multiple repeats...but all that aside...you mention understanding the "why" now, as to the approach TWRA is taking....is it to slow the spread or what? Why? Honest question?

I can't imagine deer density like that, either. That's why I asked a poster if it was an exaggeration. And I'm sure the density isn't spread evenly across the board. Like any deer they will congregate in certain spots and largely ignore other spots. But shake it out any way and it's still an enormous amount of deer.

As to your question, yes I think perhaps TWRA's response was genuine in intent, which was to slow or halt the spread. But I hadn't before understood why they would be so drastic & heavy handed when nothing of the sort was ever required anywhere else in wild herds. It just didn't make sense. In light of how insanely dense the herd population was I now understand why TWRA might have felt the urgency to act so aggressively. I'm not saying they were right, only that I now see a plausible/possible explanation for why their actions were so grossly out of the norm. In fact I am still very skeptical and critical of the way they're handling things. I don't know that population density was their reason. I only assume as much because it fits and is the only explanation I can think of that isn't nefarious in nature.

What would TWRA's motive be for destroying the herd in west TN? What would an exec at TWRA have to gain? Usually when there's somebody up to no good, it's for a reason. And on the same token, when somebody is doing something unpopular but with intentions of doing right, there's a reason. There's a why. That "why" seems to be the big missing link in a lot of the discussions about how TWRA is handling CWD.

 

[DoubleRidge]

What would TWRA's motive be for destroying the herd in west TN? What would an exec at TWRA have to gain?

I agree...to think it was done with ill intent makes zero sense...theres nothing to gain...but we are several years into this journey now...and its crossed the TN river now...so lets step back and evaluate what is working and whats not working and make adjustments...continuing to allow rifle from archery into March and having earn a buck tag by killing more does....doesnt make sense to me at this point....and honestly it never made sense from the beginning...I can only hope they dont use the same CWD management plan across the entire state.

 

[BSK]

They adopted this plan because a single study suggested it slows the spread. However, in that study, they had no control. They simply applied the "lower the deer density dramatically" technique to an area where CWD was just showing up, and over a number of years, the rate of increase in positives was slower than in other areas. So they jumped to the conclusion it works - it slows the spread. But what if that slower spread was the normal rate of increase without doing anything for that area?

In my opinion, a pretty destructive leap of faith for a single non-controlled study.

 

[Creek]

I'm curious what management rules/regs are in places where CWD has been around for many years and how they differ from what has been discussed in this thread. I mean wouldn't someone follow the advice of those people from those areas?

 

[Flintlocksforme]

How well is TWRA doing to slow the spread? Now if TWRA has the correct plan in place. It would pay off for hunters in nearby counties not yet impacted by CWD to travel to the closest CWD county and shoot every deer they see. Cut off the heads, drop them off for testing, earn more buck tags and leave the rest on the ground. Only a real douche bag would admit that they were doing that publicly if they chose too. But in reality if TWRA is right about stopping the spread then they may be protecting their own county's deer herd by decimating the closest population that will inevitably spread CWD to their own county.

 

[Ski]

I'm curious what management rules/regs are in places where CWD has been around for many years and how they differ from what has been discussed in this thread. I mean wouldn't someone follow the advice of those people from those areas?

That's a very good question and one I would hope was asked before any decisions were made in reg changes. But it doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[fairchaser]

We're just east of Ames and it's the same for us. As it was, it was not unusual to have 80-100 sightings of deer a day. I doubt that I have seen 20 all year

Thanks for this insight. A certain number of hunters are in disbelief that CWD has impacted the deer herd. It's like they just don't believe me.

 

[Iglow]

How are the deer herds in the west where it's been since the 60's?

 

[fairchaser]

Reminds me of how people kept telling me how lucky I was to hunt intensively managed private property where monster bucks were behind every tree, and killing one was as simple as picking out the one you want. Then they saw my data on how few deer we actually see while on stand. Then many of the same hunters said they would never hunt a property where deer/buck sightings were so difficult to come by!

Average hunting time required to see a deer, any deer: 2.9 hours
Average hunting time required to see an antlered buck of any age: 8.6 hours
Average hunting time required to see a buck 2 1/2 years old or older: 19.2 hours
Average hunting time required to see a buck 3 1/2 years old or older: 68.5 hours

That sounds about right for Ames even in its heyday. A sighting of a buck that would score 125 was once or twice a season. Many hunters has 120 hours on stand during a season. I'd love to see the stats this year but we don't get those anymore.

 

[fairchaser]

A very fast growing segment of accomplished & avid TN deer hunters are doing exactly this, although many are choosing many other states, not just KY for deer or AR for ducks.

Middlemen leasing agents accelerated this process with high lease prices on mediocre TN deer-hunting tracts.

The dirty little secret is that many other states' public lands offer a better opportunity for a 150-plus-class whitetail than most of TN's best-managed large acreage private hunting lands. This would include the 18,000-acrea Ames Plantation, which has produced how many bucks over 150 in the past 15 years of "intense trophy buck management"?

And I don't mean to sound like I'm picking on or disparaging Ames, as am just stating this to point out the reality you cannot grow a 150-class buck behind every tree on mediocre lands in TN, when it can't even be done at such a fabulous place as Ames.

Bucks that grow 150 inch racks are just rare animals even on an intensely managed property like Ames. I can only think of maybe 10 over 15 years and a couple 160's. The largest being a 168. But we did have one year where we killed 10 bucks over 140. That's about as good as it gets in West TN unless you get down on the MS river.

 

[TX300mag]

I can only speak for the areas I hunt, but the population seems higher right now than it's been in many years. I just don't see hunters killing as many deer as they used to, especially does. CWD regs are what they are, but I'm not sure it's turned into a slaughter.

I suspect in a lot of areas farmers and depridation permits are more to blame than hunters just slaughtering them because of liberal bag limits.

 

[fairchaser]

How are the deer herds in the west where it's been since the 60's?

CWD is a proximity and density disease. Areas with herds with low density like out West aren't as impacted like the southern deer herds.

 

[fairchaser]

Until this thread I was in the same thought. Nothing made sense. CWD has been around at least 40yrs, probably forever, and is found in several countries around the northern hemisphere worldwide. It's not killing off animals at a rapid, measurable rate anywhere else but we're supposed to believe that it is in a couple west TN counties? Like most other folks I was calling BS. But this thread has made me raise an eyebrow to something I didn't consider before.

Up until now I was relating west TN to everywhere else. Some places have lots of deer. Some places have few deer. CWD is the same regardless. But then I read reports of just how many deer there were in west TN. Can you imagine seeing upwards of 100 deer in a 3hr sit? One poster claimed 40-50 deer seen in a day on a 180 acre property. That's a herd density of 142 deer/sq mile, or 4.5 deer/acre. It seems ridiculous but I outright asked if it was an exaggeration and it was corroborated by several other posters. There's no reason to think anybody is lying, so the only take away is that there used to be an astronomically high density of deer for a very long time in a relatively small area. Given what we know about how CWD spreads, it's only logical that in an environment like that it would spread like wildfire. And since conditions like that don't exist anywhere else on the planet, CWD hasn't been the big deal that it is there in west TN. It's akin to kids starting back to school in fall. They all get sick because suddenly they're all placed in a confined space together. That high density of individuals rapidly accelerates the spread of a contagen.

Which brings me to TWRA. Until now I have been an outspoken opponent of how they're handling the situation. I couldn't understand such a gross overreaction. Now I do. Drastic times call for drastic measures. Doesn't mean I am now on board with how they're approaching the problem, only that now I finally understand why they're taking such a dramatic approach. The why is what's been missing all this time. Now I get it. Of course they're going to see a gross amplification of what CWD can do because they have a gross amplification of what a typical herd density looks like. Does TWRA deserve criticism for they're handling of CWD? Probably. I think it's fair. I believe they've screwed some things up, and in light of recent legal issues it's plausible they screwed up real bad. But given the unprecidented circumstances I can longer criticize their decisions because they're dealing with a situation nobody aside from fenced deer farms has ever had to deal with before, so there were no examples for them to follow.

So I don't know. I couldn't figure out why west TN was so different, why TWRA was being so extreme when nothing like that was being done anywhere else. Now I know it was because of the population density, and it makes total sense. That would be the only plausible reason to handle things the way TWRA is doing it. And if the core issue that allows CWD to become so prevalent is population density, then wouldn't the logical approach be thinning the herd to more manageable, healthy numbers? I didn't mean to write a novel, just emptying some thoughts into words. I don't have any answers and won't pretend to. Going forward I think i'll withold judgement and just observe.

This times 100.

 

[Iglow]

Ames ? As in the bird dog trial place?