Agree or Disagree?

[BigAl]

Have y'all or anyone ever found a deer that died from CWD? Not one y'all killed and it tested posistive. Also are y'all finding numerous dead deer on your property? Where are all the buzzards that's feeding on all the dead CWD is killing???There's not none. We shed hunt thousands of acres all around the CWD areas and hardly ever find a dead one. No more then we founds 20yrs ago. That's my opinion.

I live in the CWD zone and have personally seen a deer which I'm pretty sure had CWD (had all the symptoms). Of course I didn't follow her around waiting on her to die, but after a week of laboring around I never saw her again. We have plenty of buzzards on our club. Once a deer hits the ground, they are on it within 30mins to an hour. By the end of the day whatever they're on is gone.

So as I've stated where I live and where I hunt has seen a drastic decline in deer sightings over the past 5 years. Our club kills less deer because we see less deer. My only explanation is CWD. What is yours? What else would explain it? And I can assure you the guys on Ames would have another explanation if it wasn't CWD.

 

[Wooden Arrow]

By the end of the day whatever they're on is gone.

Mother Nature doesn't leave evidence lying around for long. protein disappears fast...

 

[Wooden Arrow]

I do wish they would move the velvet hunt off of the squirrel opener. It keeps slot of kids out of the squirrel woods because dad wants to kill s fuzzy antlered doe necked red tick taxi. Move it up a week

the "velvet" hunt is one of TN G&F worst ideas ever, JMHO.

 

[tbadon]

Just do away with it entirely.
Overall, it causes more harm than good, and that "good" is only for a teeny tiny minority of deer hunters.

How does it cause more harm?

 

[7mmWSM]

I live in the CWD zone and have personally seen a deer which I'm pretty sure had CWD (had all the symptoms). Of course I didn't follow her around waiting on her to die, but after a week of laboring around I never saw her again. We have plenty of buzzards on our club. Once a deer hits the ground, they are on it within 30mins to an hour. By the end of the day whatever they're on is gone.

So as I've stated where I live and where I hunt has seen a drastic decline in deer sightings over the past 5 years. Our club kills less deer because we see less deer. My only explanation is CWD. What is yours? What else would explain it? And I can assure you the guys on Ames would have another explanation if it wasn't CWD.

You're the first I've heard say they see a lot of buzzards on their farm. I think more deer die from EHD then CWD. Again has ANYONE found a deer that died from CWD? Not a deer that tested positive after it was killed. I mean one that was found dead and then tested? We have over 2,000 acres that's very very close to Ames and it's covered with deer. We have a lot of foodplots with corn that does attract deer this time of year. Sure we've killed some that tested positive but didn't die from CWD. I have a good friend that owns and leases twice as much as us that joins Ames and down the road from them. They're covered with deer and no dead ones. We've both talked about the lack of buzzards nor bones piles. We shed hunt every bit of all the places with other farms as well. We hardly ever find a dead deer or deadhead. I assure you hunters and farmers are killing more than CWD.
In response to Ames I feel like theirs is self inflicted. Ames has always kill the does way down. But don't take my word for it ask any of them. Allan Houston has decimated the does for years and years by forcing the hunters to kill so many. Even as far as to threaten the hunters that weren't shooting them. That right there drops your herd numbers down when done continuously over the years. Also Ames allows the hunters now to kill any legal buck there. Spikes or whatever.
Also just about statewide deer sightings are down. That's not CWD so explain that to me. Our biggest issue in Fayette county is a 3 month gun season, 3 does a day, and farmers killing as many as they want with no limit. Oh and the depredation permits to hunt til the end of March which is pretty sad to call yourself a hunter and do that.
So my response is if you want an easy way out blame it on CWD. But if your really concerned look at everything that's been going on for years around here.

 

[CrossVolle]

the "velvet" hunt is one of TN G&F worst ideas ever, JMHO.

Yes it's awful.

 

[Remi]

I read about CWD but it's not around here yet.

 

[BigAl]

You're the first I've heard say they see a lot of buzzards on their farm. I think more deer die from EHD then CWD. Again has ANYONE found a deer that died from CWD? Not a deer that tested positive after it was killed. I mean one that was found dead and then tested? We have over 2,000 acres that's very very close to Ames and it's covered with deer. We have a lot of foodplots with corn that does attract deer this time of year. Sure we've killed some that tested positive but didn't die from CWD. I have a good friend that owns and leases twice as much as us that joins Ames and down the road from them. They're covered with deer and no dead ones. We've both talked about the lack of buzzards nor bones piles. We shed hunt every bit of all the places with other farms as well. We hardly ever find a dead deer or deadhead. I assure you hunters and farmers are killing more than CWD.
In response to Ames I feel like theirs is self inflicted. Ames has always kill the does way down. But don't take my word for it ask any of them. Allan Houston has decimated the does for years and years by forcing the hunters to kill so many. Even as far as to threaten the hunters that weren't shooting them. That right there drops your herd numbers down when done continuously over the years. Also Ames allows the hunters now to kill any legal buck there. Spikes or whatever.
Also just about statewide deer sightings are down. That's not CWD so explain that to me. Our biggest issue in Fayette county is a 3 month gun season, 3 does a day, and farmers killing as many as they want with no limit. Oh and the depredation permits to hunt til the end of March which is pretty sad to call yourself a hunter and do that.
So my response is if you want an easy way out blame it on CWD. But if your really concerned look at everything that's been going on for years around here.

I don't disagree that Ames probably overkilled some deer, but that wouldn't affect where I hunt, but I'll let the Ames guys chime in. And I don't think we overkilled does on our place. But either way, there's less deer. If its EHD, as you say, they should make a come back. But so far it isn't happening.

 

[DeerCamp]

I hunt Oklahoma every year. They do have a 2 buck limit, but it's not like ours.

It's 1 per weapons season, max of 2 total. If you kill one with a rifle, you'd have to kill the other with Archery or MZL. As an out of state hunter, this would mean buying another $300 license.

The deer hunting IS better in Oklahoma, but it's not because of limits. I'd argue that it's not even really genetics or soil quality.

The main difference in Oklahoma is size of parcels. In TN, it seems like every piece of property is broken up into 10-40 acres, and somebody hunts every one of them. In OK, I hunt 3 parcels that together are over 1,000 acres.

If almost no one shoots 2 deer in Oklahoma, then I don't see a strong argument for changing the limit. Wasn't this his argument?

 

[Ski]

Overall, it causes more harm than good, and that "good" is only for a teeny tiny minority of deer hunters.

What specific harm does it cause?

 

[Ski]

I read about CWD but it's not around here yet.

That's a very compelling and informative, no BS video.

 

[Wooden Arrow]

yet.

i can remember when folks said that about the hogs...and coyotes. "all things come to those who but wait" fire ants, asian tiger mosquitoes, chinese longhorn ticks ... i'll stop now, depressing myself.

 

[BigAl]

i can remember when folks said that about the hogs...and coyotes. "all things come to those who but wait" fire ants, asian tiger mosquitoes, chinese longhorn ticks ... i'll stop now, depressing myself.

I hate fire ants. And Tiger mosquitoes. Haven't ran across a chinese tick, but I'm sure I will.

 

[Wooden Arrow]

I hate fire ants. And Tiger mosquitoes. Haven't ran across a chinese tick, but I'm sure I will.

they've been found in both Carolinas and Virginia so far. Maryland maybe, not sure. they can actually kill confined livestock held in barn stalls etc.

 

[TheLBLman]

How does it cause more harm?

Velvet Hunt, Devils Advocate version...

Why no outrage? No name calling of “trophyist”? Was this not done without recommendation by TWRA and very little hunter input? It’s private land only, that knocks out the public land hunter so opportunity is not gained. It’s antlered Deer only, once again no more opportunity except a few extra...

www.tndeer.com

The "trophy" buck summertime hunt wasn't anything most deer hunters wanted, not even most archery hunters were wanting it. It mainly benefits very few, and among those few, they are mostly accomplished deer hunters, but also opportunist poachers who find illegal baiting particular productive in late summer (before acorns drop and when many plants have dried up).

Among my other issues with it are it coincides with the "free" hunting day that was mainly designed to get youth into small-game hunting for squirrels, hoping to help make them lifetime hunters. Not to mention, this is also the opening of the statewide squirrel season.

It also precedes the statewide juvenile deer hunt.
Sure, a juvenile can participate. But unless they're illegally baiting, typically low odds for success.

So my main beef is it benefits only a small subset of mostly highly accomplished trophy buck hunters, or, a bunch of poachers whacking bucks when they're most vulnerable.

That said, yes, some hunters have great opportunities to legally kill a velvet buck in a soybean field. But the majority of TN hunters do not have that opportunity. I also know there are a few honest hunter families who love the velvet hunt opportunity and do everything 100% legal regarding.

But I'm more convicted than ever now that a much higher percentage of bucks taken during the velvet hunt are illegally taken in late August than on any other weekend of TN's deer season. To a large degree, the date of this hunt seems to more or less punish most hunters, while particularly rewarding those who illegally bait (poach).

Many the calls to legalize hunting over bait now stem from the creation of this trophy buck velvet hunt.

There's an entire thread about it linked above.

 

[Ski]

Velvet Hunt, Devils Advocate version...

Why no outrage? No name calling of “trophyist”? Was this not done without recommendation by TWRA and very little hunter input? It’s private land only, that knocks out the public land hunter so opportunity is not gained. It’s antlered Deer only, once again no more opportunity except a few extra...

www.tndeer.com

The "trophy" buck summertime hunt wasn't anything most deer hunters wanted, not even most archery hunters were wanting it. It mainly benefits very few, and among those few, they are mostly accomplished deer hunters, but also opportunist poachers who find illegal baiting particular productive in late summer (before acorns drop and when many plants have dried up).

Among my other issues with it are it coincides with the "free" hunting day that was mainly designed to get youth into small-game hunting for squirrels, hoping to help make them lifetime hunters. Not to mention, this is also the opening of the statewide squirrel season.

It also precedes the statewide juvenile deer hunt.
Sure, a juvenile can participate. But unless they're illegally baiting, typically low odds for success.

So my main beef is it benefits only a small subset of mostly highly accomplished trophy buck hunters, or, a bunch of poachers whacking bucks when they're most vulnerable.

That said, yes, some hunters have great opportunities to legally kill a velvet buck in a soybean field. But the majority of TN hunters do not have that opportunity. I also know there are a few honest hunter families who love the velvet hunt opportunity and do everything 100% legal regarding.

But I'm more convicted than ever now that a much higher percentage of bucks taken during the velvet hunt are illegally taken in late August than on any other weekend of TN's deer season. To a large degree, the date of this hunt seems to more or less punish most hunters, while particularly rewarding those who illegally bait (poach).

Many the calls to legalize hunting over bait now stem from the creation of this trophy buck velvet hunt.

There's an entire thread about it linked above.

Do you have any stats to support your claims of poaching? In my experience bow hunters bow hunt because of how hard it is. Cheating kind of defeats the purpose of choosing a challenging way to hunt.

The juvenile hunt is two months later so I can't see how it affects the juveniles or hinders lifetime license sales in any way. That's a huge stretch that makes no sense.

It also doesn't affect the free hunt day where folks are encouraged to explore hunting by trying small game hunting on public land. The velvet hunt is private land. Again a stretch that makes no sense.

Last but not least is how it relates to folks wanting legalized baiting. People want baiting for every season. But it's not. It's just as illegal in the velvet hunt as it is any other season.

 

[TheLBLman]

Do you have any stats to support your claims of poaching?

Yes.

In my experience bow hunters bow hunt because of how hard it is.

That was once true. Just not necessarily the case with the "trophy" velvet buck hunt.
This particular hunt is more about an extra opportunity to kill a trophy buck, more than it is about archery being harder. It's actually pretty easy to kill a velvet buck over a corn pile in late August.

Cheating kind of defeats the purpose of choosing a challenging way to hunt.

Totally agree.
But hunting ethics have been greatly replaced with the desire to get facebook credits for killing a big buck, no matter how it was killed. Many are simply killing pet deer in people's back yards, then telling others what a great bowhunter they are.

The single biggest problem I have with the August velvet hunt is how vulnerable older bucks are to illegal corn baiting, easily patterned, easily poached with impunity. TWRA has come up with yet another idea that tends to reward the dishonest poacher, while punishing the ethical honest hunters.

Am saying this in part because only a teeny, tiny percentage of ethical TN deer hunters have any interest whatsoever in deer hunting in August. The velvet hunt causes an increase in poached bucks, mostly older bucks, which takes those older bucks out of what was available for all hunters.

Never mind the negative images portrayed to non-hunters about this particular "trophy" buck hunt, which cannot be so easily countered with hunters are providing a service in deer population control, and providing healthy venison as a food source.

Ideas such as the "trophy" velvet buck hunt just put us one step closer to less hunting period.

It's not all bad, just that, imo, the positives of this hunt do not off-set the negatives, when everything is considered in full context, rather any one ethical hunter's desire to kill a trophy velvet buck.

 

[7mmWSM]

Don't forget in CWD area you can use a rifle. It's not bow only.

 

[Ski]

But hunting ethics have been greatly replaced with the desire to get facebook credits for killing a big buck, no matter how it was killed. Many are simply killing pet deer in people's back yards, then telling others what a great bowhunter they are.

The single biggest problem I have with the August velvet hunt is how vulnerable older bucks are to illegal corn baiting, easily patterned, easily poached with impunity. TWRA has come up with yet another idea that tends to reward the dishonest poacher, while punishing the ethical honest hunters.

Am saying this in part because only a teeny, tiny percentage of ethical TN deer hunters have any interest whatsoever in deer hunting in August. The velvet hunt causes an increase in poached bucks, mostly older bucks, which takes those older bucks out of what was available for all hunters.

I don't agree with that at all. I don't see it. That's why I asked about factual statistics. If there are that many poachers then there should be a paper trail to prove it. Until I see that I'm going to have a very, very hard time believing it just because somebody on the internet says so.

What is it about the number of participants that bothers you so much? Nobody is taking anything away from you. Nobody is getting extra or special benefits. Just because you aren't interested in claiming that benefit doesn't mean it isn't available to you. It is. The opportunity is there same for you as it is for me. Tough cookies if I get to that buck before you do because I was willing to endure the heat & bugs while you enjoyed the comfort of air conditioning. Crying about it doesn't make it wrong. You're literally saying it's unfair that I'm allowed to go out in the miserable summer and kill that buck with a bow before you can kill him with a gun when the weather is not so uncomfortable. You're assigning superiority to your wants and your style over mine and broad brush painting everybody else as a poacher to justify it.

Never mind the negative images portrayed to non-hunters about this particular "trophy" buck hunt, which cannot be so easily countered with hunters are providing a service in deer population control, and providing healthy venison as a food source.

Ideas such as the "trophy" velvet buck hunt just put us one step closer to less hunting period.

As long as humans have hunted deer, antlers have been a trophy. Pretend to be something you're not if you feel you must but don't expect me to. I'm comfortable being what I am. And I owe no explanation to anybody who wants to look down on me without fully understanding who or what I am. It's not and never has been a hunter's job or place to provide a service of population control. Contract killers fill that role. The rest of us are sportsman who pay an entity to manage the habitat and wildlife for us to enjoy. We don't work for them. They work for us.

I'm not sorry for being a trophy hunter. I'm not ashamed. I'm not going to pretend I'm doing it for any other reason. And I'm not the problem. The problem is all the wussies who fold over when the wind blows so they try painting hunting in some bullsh!t fake image thinking they can fool the anti-hunters into accepting us. The anti-hunting crowd in large is never going to accept hunting under any circumstances. They don't eat meat. They don't like livestock farming. They don't like logging. They don't like carbon fuels. They don't like anything at all that I'm aware of. They protest progress but call themselves progressives. And that's the lunatics you're afraid of? I'm not. Hunting isn't going anywhere and the velvet trophy hunt isn't doing anything to harm hunting's image and certainly isn't hurting other hunters. Don't cry that trophy hunting paints us in a bad light but in the same breath cry that me velvet hunting robs you of a trophy because you weren't ready to hunt yet. Can't have it both ways.

 

[tbadon]

I don't agree with that at all. I don't see it. That's why I asked about factual statistics. If there are that many poachers then there should be a paper trail to prove it. Until I see that I'm going to have a very, very hard time believing it just because somebody on the internet says so.

What is it about the number of participants that bothers you so much? Nobody is taking anything away from you. Nobody is getting extra or special benefits. Just because you aren't interested in claiming that benefit doesn't mean it isn't available to you. It is. The opportunity is there same for you as it is for me. Tough cookies if I get to that buck before you do because I was willing to endure the heat & bugs while you enjoyed the comfort of air conditioning. Crying about it doesn't make it wrong. You're literally saying it's unfair that I'm allowed to go out in the miserable summer and kill that buck with a bow before you can kill him with a gun when the weather is not so uncomfortable. You're assigning superiority to your wants and your style over mine and broad brush painting everybody else as a poacher to justify it.



As long as humans have hunted deer, antlers have been a trophy. Pretend to be something you're not if you feel you must but don't expect me to. I'm comfortable being what I am. And I owe no explanation to anybody who wants to look down on me without fully understanding who or what I am. It's not and never has been a hunter's job or place to provide a service of population control. Contract killers fill that role. The rest of us are sportsman who pay an entity to manage the habitat and wildlife for us to enjoy. We don't work for them. They work for us.

I'm not sorry for being a trophy hunter. I'm not ashamed. I'm not going to pretend I'm doing it for any other reason. And I'm not the problem. The problem is all the wussies who fold over when the wind blows so they try painting hunting in some bullsh!t fake image thinking they can fool the anti-hunters into accepting us. The anti-hunting crowd in large is never going to accept hunting under any circumstances. They don't eat meat. They don't like livestock farming. They don't like logging. They don't like carbon fuels. They don't like anything at all that I'm aware of. They protest progress but call themselves progressives. And that's the lunatics you're afraid of? I'm not. Hunting isn't going anywhere and the velvet trophy hunt isn't doing anything to harm hunting's image and certainly isn't hurting other hunters. Don't cry that trophy hunting paints us in a bad light but in the same breath cry that me velvet hunting robs you of a trophy because you weren't ready to hunt yet. Can't have it both ways.

Thank you for stating in words better than I can the fallacies of his argument. The bottom line is unethical people are going to do unethical things whenever they have the opportunity. It sounds like the major argument against the velvet hunt is the fact that another opportunity is provided to be unethical. However, that doesn't make giving that opportunity a bad idea or decision. The opportunity was given for ethical hunters to harvest a buck in velvet, something I have heard hunters saying they wish they had the chance to do since I was a boy(I am 57). I have hunted the velvet hunt every year and have only had one shot opportunity, and I hunt ag fields. I have one trophy(and velvet) deer in my lifetime because of that one opportunity. Giving people the opportunity to harvest a velvet buck does not make that decision a bad decision just because unethical people will take advantage of it. We would all be better off addressing the need for sinful people to get right with God. And yes, if anyone reading this is an unethical hunter(by definition a poacher), then you are not right with God. If any of you hunt over bait, stop it. If any of you spotlight to harvest deer, knock it off. You hurt the image of hunting and hunters to the non-hunting world. We know you are poachers, but the non-hunting world lumps us all together. If any of you know an unethical hunter, address it with him, or better yet invite him to church.