Interesting article on lead vs TSS

[Roost 1]

An old timer once told me most any gun could fill up a wash tub at 45yds, of course back then he was referring to lead.
Sounds like some of y'all like that type of pattern and want do it with TSS.
I'd say keep shooting lead and limit your range to 35yds because if you start shooting birds at 45yds with 9s and a FULL choke you are gonna have the same result. Need to decide if you wanna shoot them at 30 and under or 40 and further. Of course with the proper set up one gun will do it all. A sight of some type can solve most of these issues along with a little practice.

 

[paboom]

Good read. This article was focused on the 12 gauge which misses the biggest benefit of TSS in my opinion.

TSS really shines in the sub gauges. It makes the lighter, less recoiling a 40 yard gun that just isn't possible with lead.

I agree that with the 12g, lead is plenty sufficient at ethical ranges. But TSS in the sub gauges will often outperform 12s with lead.

 

[megalomaniac]

. But TSS in the sub gauges will often outperform 12s with lead.

Nope, 9 TSS out of a 20g will FAR outpeform lead out of a 12... to the point where there is no comparison.

Sure it may be comparable to a .243 vs .300 RUM against whitetails... dead is dead. But jeez, there is just no escaping the evenly dense pattern TSS in a 20g throws at 40y.

Had a buddy cripple one with a 3.5in 12g lead last year at 40y in an open field (fortunately, we were able to rush him and get a followup shot to finish him before he got away due to a couple stray pellets breaking legs). He's watched me kill graveyard dead several with the 20g tss in the past several years... he's now switched to a 20g with tss for this spring.

 

[paboom]

Nope, 9 TSS out of a 20g will FAR outpeform lead out of a 12... to the point where there is no comparison.

Sure it may be comparable to a .243 vs .300 RUM against whitetails... dead is dead. But jeez, there is just no escaping the evenly dense pattern TSS in a 20g throws at 40y.

Had a buddy cripple one with a 3.5in 12g lead last year at 40y in an open field (fortunately, we were able to rush him and get a followup shot to finish him before he got away due to a couple stray pellets breaking legs). He's watched me kill graveyard dead several with the 20g tss in the past several years... he's now switched to a 20g with tss for this spring.

I think you may have misread my statement. We're agreeing on the same point.

 

[scn]

Nope, 9 TSS out of a 20g will FAR outpeform lead out of a 12... to the point where there is no comparison.

Sure it may be comparable to a .243 vs .300 RUM against whitetails... dead is dead. But jeez, there is just no escaping the evenly dense pattern TSS in a 20g throws at 40y.

Had a buddy cripple one with a 3.5in 12g lead last year at 40y in an open field (fortunately, we were able to rush him and get a followup shot to finish him before he got away due to a couple stray pellets breaking legs). He's watched me kill graveyard dead several with the 20g tss in the past several years... he's now switched to a 20g with tss for this spring.

Ridiculous on the far out performing and no comparison.

The koolaid is really strong for some.

 

[megalomaniac]

Ridiculous on the far out performing and no comparison.

The koolaid is really strong for some.

According to the author, 47 to 76 hits in a 10in circle at 40y with lead depending on the manufacturer.

235 hits with 9 tss in a 10 in circle...(author used 1 3/4 oz 12g, but I get 225 hits out of 1 1/2 oz 20g).

300 to 400% increase in pellets to the head and neck with 9 TSS vs lead, give me some more of that Kool aid all day long!

Is it worth 800% increase in price for 300% better performance? What's a toms life worth? When I pull the trigger, I want to know 100% he's going to take pellets to the brain and spinal cord and be dispatched immediately, not even 5 to 10% chance the lead pellets due to 300% fewer pellets in the hit zone will miss the head and neck causing a cripple loss.

As far as the cost... I typically shoot 6 to 10 birds per year. About $75 extra for TSS... a drop in the bucket compared to all the plane tickets, miles in the car, rental car fees, license fees, etc. Can't hide money

Now if you never shoot beyond 30y, lead is just fine.

 

[scn]

Take a few minutes and read some of the scientific work by Martin Fackler and Tom Roster about actually killing things. There is a major difference in killing an animal and just poking holes in a piece of paper.

If you want to say that a 20 ga. with #9 TSS puts more holes in paper than a 12 ga with lead #5, I'll agree all day long. But, with the results of the terminal ballistics, it doesn't take the same number of the lead #5 to kill just as efficiently (or more) as the little #9 shot.

If you want to say that the TSS has made a 20 ga equal to a heavier 12 ga, I'll probably even buy that. I bought one for that very reason. It is a pleasure to tote around.

But, to say it is beyond comparison far better in killing a turkey is total bs.

I have not killed near the number of turkeys that you have. But, I have killed several. And, as I have posted, with the exception of one that dropped his head as I was pulling the trigger, I have never had one move out of his tracks with the 12 ga and #5. Some have done a death flop right there, but just as many were "wilted" on the spot. And, several have been well beyond 30 yds.

Dead in its tracks is dead in its tracks no matter how many little shot you hit it with.

 

[Spurhunter]

But, with the results of the terminal ballistics, it doesn't take the same number of the lead #5 to kill just as efficiently (or more) as the little #9 shot.

I'm not arguing with the research you read, but just looking at it from a common sense point of view, the 9 TSS weighs the same as the 5 lead, but it's smaller, so it will get better penetration. It's easier to drive a finishing nail into a 2X4 than a railroad spike. Plus, there's many, many more of the TSS pellets than the lead. There's fewer holes in the pattern. You are going to get more pellets of the same weight deeper into the neck and brain with TSS. I just don't see how this can be disagreed with. Maybe if you compare one TSS 9 pellet against one lead 5 pellet, assuming they both got the same penetration, the larger lead would do more damage, but that's not real world application.

 

[scn]

Again, go read some of the scientific work about killing things. I was into it a bunch when we were having to make decisions on what weapons our officers would be carrying on the job. And, Roster's work when the switch from lead to non-toxic shot was eye opening.

Extremely hard shot is great ballistically for shooting tight, even patterns. But, terminally, it just isn't as good as lead in the killing. If you have ever seen the difference in shooting a duck with lead shot as opposed to shooting one with steel, it is easy to observe. There weren't many lead shot geese that flew off 80 or 90 yds to fall dead from the sky from blood loss with the steel shot totally zipping through their body. Roster proved beyond doubt that nickel plated lead shot was far superior in the actually killing of waterfowl over steel shot. I know non-toxic shot has been touted as saving a bunch of waterfowl that was dying from ingesting the lead shot. I'm not sure the savings have been that great compared with birds being lost that would have died in the air with lead.

Again, killing things doesn't just equate to holes in a piece of paper.

 

[tickweed]

"If you hunt turkeys the right way—by luring them inside 30 yards—then any of the loads I tested will tag your bird. That means you can shoot the cheap stuff and save your money for taxidermy."

Winner, winner, turkey dinner!!

Great article!! Thanks for sharing!!

I saw some TSS at Sportsman's Warehouse in Murfeesboro this week that were $75 for 5 shells. That's $15 a shell.

Yeah, I don't own a yeti cooler either.

Exactly. Hunting them the old school way, a dove load will kill him. The sport is for the most part long gone, nows its all about killing, not so much working the bird. And believe me, Ive killed one or two in my day.

 

[Spurhunter]

Again, go read some of the scientific work about killing things. I was into it a bunch when we were having to make decisions on what weapons our officers would be carrying on the job. And, Roster's work when the switch from lead to non-toxic shot was eye opening.

Extremely hard shot is great ballistically for shooting tight, even patterns. But, terminally, it just isn't as good as lead in the killing. If you have ever seen the difference in shooting a duck with lead shot as opposed to shooting one with steel, it is easy to observe. There weren't many lead shot geese that flew off 80 or 90 yds to fall dead from the sky from blood loss with the steel shot totally zipping through their body. Roster proved beyond doubt that nickel plated lead shot was far superior in the actually killing of waterfowl over steel shot. I know non-toxic shot has been touted as saving a bunch of waterfowl that was dying from ingesting the lead shot. I'm not sure the savings have been that great compared with birds being lost that would have died in the air with lead.

Again, killing things doesn't just equate to holes in a piece of paper.

I agree with everything you said. Steel shot sucks. But, steel is like shooting cotton balls at ducks. It would be better to compare shooting some type of heavier than lead at ducks vs. lead.

 

[Spurhunter]

Exactly. Hunting them the old school way, a dove load will kill him. The sport is for the most part long gone, nows its all about killing, not so much working the bird. And believe me, Ive killed one or two in my day.

I agree. Social media has ruined the old school ways of hunting. Fan, bait, snipe, whatever you have to do to get your grip and grin online ASAP. However, not all things are equal for all hunters. I know guys that have exclusive rights on 1000 farms that are absolutely covered up with turkeys. A novice could limit his shots to 30 yards and tag out in a week. And I know guys that can only hunt public land in west TN where the populations are low. Bad low. They aren't going to get near the opportunities to kill birds inside 30 yards due to population alone. It's the equivalent of a guy that fishes at Lake Baccarac in Mexico telling a guy that can only afford to fish at Whiteville Lake in Tennessee that anything under 14 pounds shouldn't be considered a trophy.

 

[woodsman04]

Lead causes more trauma around the actual hole that it went in. I don't know if TSS does, with the density of it and the energy it has I would think it does but not sure. But also as hard as it is, is it similar to steel?
To me shooting ducks or geese with steel is like using field points to hunt deer with your bow. Just pokes holes in them. You watch geese fly off, and about the time they get out of site you see one flying lower and slower, and just easing down.

I use a 20 gauge now with some TSS. I think it is extremely effective.

But it's hard to beat an old school 12gauge 3"mag with some copperplated 6s…….

 

[woodsman04]

Neither here nor there, but steel shot for waterfowl is one of the biggest bs Laws I've ever seen. So many cripples that lead would have just stoned them dead.

 

[Roost 1]

This argument will never end. I think most know what TSS can do however it's only as good as the guy pulling the trigger. I know guys that literally never miss a turkey and I know guys that miss more than they kill. TSS is not the cure for the latter. In my opinion I think TSS gives some hunters a false sense of security. They think they can't miss!! Actually they don't miss they just don't kill the bird right then. My best advice to anyone who has trouble missing, TSS or Lead, is to take better shots, put a sight (preferably a red dot) on your gun, throw those ol rifled sights in the garbage. Most rifle sights and/or beads cover the whole bird up at 40yds, you don't know where you are aiming. Don't shoot at walking, running, or flying turkeys, they deserve better. Do these things and it won't matter if shooting TSS or lead.

 

[Rakkin6]

Wonder if most of today's turkey hunters have ever even heard an old Tom DRUMMING up close & personal?

There is nothing else like it to me.

Much more adrenaline-pumping exciting than a gobble.

I disagree if you are setting in a draw or saddle where you get good acoustics and you have a big Tom gobbling and you can actually feel it in your chest. That is what got.me hooked on turkey hunting. But to each their own.

 

[Spurhunter]

I disagree if you are setting in a draw or saddle where you get good acoustics and you have a big Tom gobbling and you can actually feel it in your chest. That is what got.me hooked on turkey hunting. But to each their own.

Or you have a bird coming, taking his time, he gets quiet and you lose track of him. He loops around, sneaks up behind you, and hammers at 25 yards.

 

[Rakkin6]

Or you have a bird coming, taking his time, he gets quiet and you lose track of him. He loops around, sneaks up behind you, and hammers at 25 yards.

Second bird I ever killed had that happen to me. He literally came in from behind me and walked right past me 2 feet away from me to my right I could have grabbed him. I let him get about 5 feet in front of me with his back to me and blasted him. I was about 10 yards inside the woodline looking at a cut corn field. He ate the whole shot of some 3" Longbeard 1 7/8 #5. Nearly crapped myself when he walked right next to me I thought it was game over. Honestly I can't remember if he even gobbled again from behind me. I think the shock of him walking next to me made me forget. He was coming from my left and would have came right out to the cut corn. Then he got quiet had to walk up a hill and then back down to get to the field. But that's what he did.

 

[Rockhound]

Again, go read some of the scientific work about killing things. I was into it a bunch when we were having to make decisions on what weapons our officers would be carrying on the job. And, Roster's work when the switch from lead to non-toxic shot was eye opening.

Extremely hard shot is great ballistically for shooting tight, even patterns. But, terminally, it just isn't as good as lead in the killing. If you have ever seen the difference in shooting a duck with lead shot as opposed to shooting one with steel, it is easy to observe. There weren't many lead shot geese that flew off 80 or 90 yds to fall dead from the sky from blood loss with the steel shot totally zipping through their body. Roster proved beyond doubt that nickel plated lead shot was far superior in the actually killing of waterfowl over steel shot. I know non-toxic shot has been touted as saving a bunch of waterfowl that was dying from ingesting the lead shot. I'm not sure the savings have been that great compared with birds being lost that would have died in the air with lead.

Again, killing things doesn't just equate to holes in a piece of paper.

You do understand that there is absolutely no comparison between steel and tss right? Density has alot more to do with it than hardness. Tss will outperform lead in every fashion, when it comes to waterfowl or turkey hunting. Your main priority for either is to take out the central nervous system. We arent trying to cause internal drama, we need bone crushing, not crazy wound channels. Lead is absolutely better than steel, but there are a few others that will outperform lead, but there is nothing that will outperform TSS for that purpose.

 

[scn]

You do understand that there is absolutely no comparison between steel and tss right? Density has alot more to do with it than hardness. Tss will outperform lead in every fashion, when it comes to waterfowl or turkey hunting. Your main priority for either is to take out the central nervous system. We arent trying to cause internal drama, we need bone crushing, not crazy wound channels. Lead is absolutely better than steel, but there are a few others that will outperform lead, but there is nothing that will outperform TSS for that purpose.

That is your opinion, and that is fine. It doesn't correspond to some scientific research. TSS does correlate somewhat with steel in the fact that it is so hard that it zips through the body with little or no expansion and carries some of its kinetic energy on with it. That doesn't happen very much with lead. And, the actual ballistics studies show that the little pixie shot approximates lead number 5 in penetration, but certainly isn't much better. I have seen one study where it penetrated almost as much as lead 5, and another where it penetrated SLIGHTLY deeper. And, believe it or not, lead shot is VERY capable of crushing bones. It has been doing it for decades on turkeys.

TSS is awesome. I have bought some more this year. I plan to hunt with it this year.

But, IMO, it isn't correct to say that it will so out perform lead in killing a turkey that it makes lead unethical to hunt with. And, yes, those claims have been made.

Dead in its tracks is dead in its tracks whether or not it is done with lead or the magic pixie shot.