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Interesting article on lead vs TSS

scn said:
That is your opinion, and that is fine. It doesn't correspond to some scientific research. TSS does correlate somewhat with steel in the fact that it is so hard that it zips through the body with little or no expansion and carries some of its kinetic energy on with it. That doesn't happen very much with lead. And, the actual ballistics studies show that the little pixie shot approximates lead number 5 in penetration, but certainly isn't much better. I have seen one study where it penetrated almost as much as lead 5, and another where it penetrated SLIGHTLY deeper. And, believe it or not, lead shot is VERY capable of crushing bones. It has been doing it for decades on turkeys.

TSS is awesome. I have bought some more this year. I plan to hunt with it this year.

But, IMO, it isn't correct to say that it will so out perform lead in killing a turkey that it makes lead unethical to hunt with. And, yes, those claims have been made.

Dead in its tracks is dead in its tracks whether or not it is done with lead or the magic pixie shot.
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Oh I agree, there's nothing at all wrong with lead, but it is inferior. Lead does indeed have bone crushing power, alot more than steel, which is what makes it better than steel. Same when you go to the next density shot up, again this is a game of CNS not wound channel.
 
The magic pixie shot is CERTAINLY superior in punching holes in a paper target. Awesome, awesome patterns with ke way out there.

But, lead inferior in killing a turkey, probably not so much. History with hundreds of thousands of dead turkeys over the decades has shown that if you hit him in the neck and head with 10-12 large lead shot that he is most likely going to die in his tracks. Hitting him with a BUNCH more of the pixie shot isn't going to make him any deader. Dead is dead. There are a lot of shot shells and guns that are capable of doing that with lead at ethical shooting distances. If you are wanting to snipe one at 70 yds, you most likely aren't going to have those 10-12 pellets in the head and neck, so the magic shot is probably better. If that is the way you want to hunt. But, hunters just starting out need to understand that they can ETHICALLY hunt without paying $12-15 a shell for the magic bullets. (and, yeah, I somehow know the difference in shot and a bullet).


And as far as the wound channel stuff and killing goes, I'll ride with the doctor doing scientific research over "info" and opinions from companies hawking the expensive magic death rays. Each to his own.
 
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scn said:
The magic pixie shot is CERTAINLY superior in punching holes in a paper target. Awesome, awesome patterns with ke way out there.

But, lead inferior in killing a turkey, probably not so much. History with hundreds of thousands of dead turkeys over the decades has shown that if you hit him in the neck with 10-12 large lead shot that he is most likely going to die in his tracks. Hitting him with a BUNCH more of the pixie shot isn't going to make him any deader. Dead is dead. There are a lot of shot shells and guns that are capable of doing that with lead at ethical shooting distances. If you are wanting to snipe one at 70 yds, you most likely aren't going to have those 10-12 pellets in the head and neck, so the magic shot is probably better. If that is the way you want to hunt. But, hunters just starting out need to understand that they can ETHICALLY hunt without paying $12-15 a shell for the magic bullets. (and, yeah, I somehow know the difference in shot and a bullet).


And as far as the wound channel stuff and killing goes, I'll ride with the doctor doing scientific research over "info" and opinions from companies hawking the expensive magic death rays. Each to his own.
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People get pattern density and terminal performance confused….. don't get caught up in the numbers game is what I tell everyone….. there is new company out now promoting unrealistic numbers in the 10" circle at 40yds…. Remember most things that sound too good to be true, usually are.
 
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scn said:
But, lead inferior in killing a turkey, probably not so much. History with hundreds of thousands of dead turkeys over the decades has shown that if you hit him in the neck and head with 10-12 large lead shot that he is most likely going to die in his tracks. Hitting him with a BUNCH more of the pixie shot isn't going to make him any deader.
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So why are you shooting TSS?
 
Spurhunter said:
So why are you shooting TSS?
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Great question that I have asked myself as well.

Turkey hunting is my first love in all of my outdoor activities, although tarpon with a fly rod is right there as well. I pretty much suck at both, so they are both MAJOR challenges for me. I am up for anything that will make me a better turkey hunter (or tarpon fisherman, including restoring an old flats skiff to get more water time).

Bottom line, I drank the koolaid and bought into the hype. Some of the "theory" behind the pixie shot sounded great, and those pictures of the paper targets were unreal. I bought in big time.

I first bought a little 20 ga that is a joy to tote around. With it, there is ZERO doubt that the pixie shot is the way to go. I probably wouldn't even hunt with it if I was limited to lead. I killed birds with it as soon as I started carrying it.

I then sold my main turkey 12 ga that was dialed in with a killing load that cost about a dollar a shot. As has been discussed, I waste money on other stuff just like the TSS, so the dollars part isn't a major issue for me. Later in the game, I saw a race horse deal on a very light 12 ga pump, and added it to the safe. Since I was enjoying the koolaid, I set it up with the pixie shot as well. Again, I can agree the pixie shot is probably a little better, but seriously question that it is 15 times better in just killing a turkey.

Am I glad I ventured down this road? Yeah, probably so. My turkey hunting style is trying to go to and set up on a gobbling bird rather than sitting in a tent while I try to call one in (although I have done that as well). My Garmin watch told me I was covering 5-6+ miles on a lot of days last spring. The little popgun is so much more fun to haul around than the big 1187 that I used to carry.

But, with that being said, it irks me to read some of the bs being spouted that a hunter isn't ethical or good if he/she is shooting anything other than the pixie shot. The hundreds of thousands of turkeys that have been killed with lead loads clearly debunks that. Some folks just don't have the money to get properly dialed in when they are touching off shells at $15 a pop. But, the koolaid is strong for some.

I hope everyone has a Safe and fun turkey season!
 
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If those 10-12 large pellets don't touch that central nervous system, chances are He's not gonna be dead in his tracks. Your not blood trailing turkeys and geese. You can't compare this to deer bullet, or handgun bullet, it's not the same.
 
Rockhound said:
If those 10-12 large pellets don't touch that central nervous system, chances are He's not gonna be dead in his tracks. Your not blood trailing turkeys and geese. You can't compare this to deer bullet, or handgun bullet, it's not the same.
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I guess I have been lucky (along with several hundred thousand other lucky lead shooters) that my pellets hit just right. Sort of the reason you aim at the head and neck instead of the body........

Again, your opinion (and probably some of the sellers) on how it works. Tom Roster proved differently on waterfowl.

And, I wonder, what is going to disrupt more of the CNS functions, one of the little pixie shot going through the brain or a large lead pellet that has mushroomed even more as it makes it's wound channel through all that brain tissue.. ......

I'll ride with the doctor and the science over the hype.
 
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scn said:
I guess I have been lucky (along with several hundred thousand other lucky lead shooters) that my pellets hit just right. Sort of the reason you aim at the head and neck instead of the body........

Again, your opinion (and probably some of the sellers) on how it works. Tom Roster proved differently on waterfowl.

And, I wonder, what is going to disrupt more of the CNS functions, one of the little pixie shot going through the brain or a large lead pellet that has mushroomed even more as it makes it's wound channel through all that brain tissue.. ......

I'll ride with the doctor and the science over the hype.
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Im not sure why ypur making up arguments that dont exist.

I have never once said that lead shot wasn't good for turkeys, I've killed a pile of them with it, and could do it again tomorrow.

Yes that is exactly why we aim at the head of a turkey. The fact we aim at the head/neck of a turkey means we also don't need mushrooming shot to kill a turkey because the central nervous system is your intended target. As with any of our intended quarry, anytime you sever the CNS, your quarry is done for. It doesn't matter it knife, tss, 270 win. Personally if I can get 35 shot to hit the brain/spine, I'll take that over 10 any day. If deformed shot is ideal for you, hevishot is your answer. That stuff looks like welding slag. Half the pellets in those loads look like snowmen lol

Tom roster proved that lead shot (11g density) is greater than steel shot (8g density) that has absolutely nothing to do with tungsten.

I'll reiterate, lead is great for killing turkeys, no argument there, but if you want to fork over the money, there are better options.
 
I think all of us can agree to dispatch a turkey, all it takes is a single pellet of any size or density to sever the spinal cord or hit the brain. Pellets to the body/chest are unreliable and usually unethical. Totally different than shooting a mammal.

I think all.of us can agree that Tss 9 shot is not any more deadly than #5 lead when it hits the brain or spinal cord of a turkey.

I think all of us can agree that there will be 4x more #9 shot TSS ounce for ounce hitting the brain and spinal cord than #5 lead (except for longbeard xr loads... TSS will only put 2 to 3x more pellets in the head and neck per ounce than 5 LB XRs)


I guess the disagreement between lead and TSS shooters is whether the pattern density is enough to ensure there is a single pellet hitting the brain or spinal cord EVERY SINGLE TRIGGER PULL with that load at that given distance every single time.

If you have that level of confidence in your pattern density with lead, no need to spend 800% more per shotshell for TSS. If your particular shotgun, with your particular choke at that particular diatance won't do it every time, changing to TSS will improve your performance 400% ounce for ounce. While that 400% improvement in pattern density does not guarantee a single pellet in the brain or spinal cord, statistically your odds of it happening are increased by 400%.

Sure, dead is dead.. if your lead loads put a single pellet in the brain or spinal cord 100% of the time, there is no need for increased pattern density. If my lead loads did that, I wouldn't shoot anything else either. I don't deer hunt with a 50 BMG when a .308 kills deer just as effectively (because I put the single bullet from the .308 into the chest). Too bad I can't pinpoint aim a single pellet out of the shotshell directly to the brain or spinal cord of a turkey. Otherwise I would just use a bb gun to kill them
 
But, with that being said, it irks me to read some of the bs being spouted that a hunter isn't ethical or good if he/she is shooting anything other than the pixie shot.
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But its actually the truth. An ethical turkey hunter would use tungsten alloy shot and nothing else (unless rifles are legal where one is hunting)
 
There is no trolling.

TSS is far superior to lead shot for turkeys. That is now an established fact.

I get the price of tss is prohibitive to a lot of hunters but if the price of tss was the price of lead, almost nobody would choose lead shells over tss shells.

Lead shells get sold because they are far cheaper and affordable. Yes they can kill turkeys.
 
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