I use a smokeless muzzleloader now so it's already cheating a little. I have shot deer with it at 200 yards. I should not have that kind of range in a primitive weapon season, but I still really get the one shot and then slow and clumsy reload. And I still have to work up loads and practice with different components etc. its still a decent bit of work to get an accurate 200 yard load. I think having quick repeat shots and easy to buy in the store accurate rounds really defeats the primitive side of things as well. So I vote no, but I also kind of dont have that leg to stand on.
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Straight wall cartridges for muzzleloader?
- Thread starter timberjack86
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DoubleRidge
Well-Known Member
I voted NO because a straight wall cartridge is not a muzzleloader....we already have a rifle season?....a really long rifle season at that.
But we don't have a primitive season. You and I and everyone else with a smokeless muzzleloader are just taking advantage of the rules, while staying within the limits of the rules.
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I went and looked at the survey question. Here is what it asked:
"Some stakeholders are interested in allowing the use of additional weapons during the second week of muzzleloader.
These additional weapons might be: "single shot, breech loading, metallic cartridge rifles (.35 caliber or larger) and replicas, reproductions, or reintroductions of those type rifles with an exposed hammer".
Please share your thoughts on allowing these weapons during the second week of muzzleloader."
This makes no mention of straight wall vs tapered wall cartridges. It also explicitly mentions single-shot rifles. The "exposed hammer" clause is a bit confusing as it is unclear whether that applies just to the reintroductions or to all the rifles mentioned. I suppose it must apply to all, as that would make more sense.
"Some stakeholders are interested in allowing the use of additional weapons during the second week of muzzleloader.
These additional weapons might be: "single shot, breech loading, metallic cartridge rifles (.35 caliber or larger) and replicas, reproductions, or reintroductions of those type rifles with an exposed hammer".
Please share your thoughts on allowing these weapons during the second week of muzzleloader."
This makes no mention of straight wall vs tapered wall cartridges. It also explicitly mentions single-shot rifles. The "exposed hammer" clause is a bit confusing as it is unclear whether that applies just to the reintroductions or to all the rifles mentioned. I suppose it must apply to all, as that would make more sense.
It'll be exposed hammer rifles, chambered in a .35 cal or bigger, if it passes. Now there could be additional specs added later. Like overall cartridge length, straight wall, overall brass length.
DoubleRidge
Well-Known Member
I dont have a smokeless....but its still a muzzleloader...make your one shot count...true its not primative...agree...but if were going down that rabbit hole then we need to add a primative archery for recurve and long bow users.
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Jason, you know how I feel about this subject. I'm not necessarily against any of it...just prefer to call it what it is. If your challenge is to develop a load (someone else mentioned) for 200 yrd shots...then that is a reloading challenge...not a hunting challenge.
If you're challenge is to take one with a ML, then using an AR in 350 legend is not fulfilling that challenge... it's gaming the system.
This has nothing to do with the subject per se, but the point is still the same.
Most kids start kindergarten at 5 yrs old. Jeb got to start when he was 3... because it was harder for him. Bow hunters start earlier in the season because it's harder using a bow. ML is next hardest, so they go next. Then modern gun gets to go. No different than women's tee's being closer on the golf course.
Let's put it another way....how do you feel about these trans weirdo guys competing in women's sports? Is that fair...or just gaming the system to get an unfair advantage...to make up for the fact they suck at whatever sport it is?
If it's legal...do whatever you want. Heck, even if it ain't legal...ain't no skin off my back.
During archery, I use my traditional bows. During the muzzleloader season, yes I use my muzzleloaders. I switch back and forth from caplock with open sights to my Omega. The key is that they load from the muzzle. During rifle, I hunt with my center fire rifles. I'd be fine with muzzleloader season being sidelock only, open sights, black powder. I enjoy each season for what it is.
Center fires of any type are not primitive, even though the name primitive weapons season gets bandied about as a catch all name to allow certain centerfires.
And I'm a straight wall cartridge fan. I have quite a few rifles so chambered. But they belong in rifle season only.
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CliffordN
Well-Known Member
I can offer some insight as to what will likely happen if they do go this route. In both MS and LA, once they allowed the centerfire cartridges in, muzzleloaders became virtually worthless, because almost everyone chose the new option. Then supplies became hard to find for anyone who didn't swap weapons. 38-55 , 35 Whelen, .444, 45-70, and probably a few even less common cartridges are about all you see in the woods now.
Then, in MS, it went to this... "During any open season on deer with primitive weapons after November 30, a person may use any legal weapon of choice on private lands only, if the person is the title owner of the land, the lessee of the hunting rights on the land, a member of a hunting club leasing the hunting rights on the land, or a guest of a person specified above."
In my opinion, it appears that they are headed toward any weapon all season, which really threatens bow hunting. And that will be a real shame! And, if it happens there, it can happen here. All of these agencies attend the Southeastern Deer Study Group meetings each year. And, you can bet that that gets the wheels to turning when they hear stories from other states. From an enforcement point of view, simple regulations make sense. I spoke out against this change, for all of the reasons I just wrote about here...
Then, in MS, it went to this... "During any open season on deer with primitive weapons after November 30, a person may use any legal weapon of choice on private lands only, if the person is the title owner of the land, the lessee of the hunting rights on the land, a member of a hunting club leasing the hunting rights on the land, or a guest of a person specified above."
In my opinion, it appears that they are headed toward any weapon all season, which really threatens bow hunting. And that will be a real shame! And, if it happens there, it can happen here. All of these agencies attend the Southeastern Deer Study Group meetings each year. And, you can bet that that gets the wheels to turning when they hear stories from other states. From an enforcement point of view, simple regulations make sense. I spoke out against this change, for all of the reasons I just wrote about here...
Yessir I remember you hooked me up with my first jug of H4198! It's almost gone now.
I still have plenty, but after not seeing any on the shelves for several years I'm wishing I had held on to it lol
And my smokeless still loads from the muzzle. I'm not advocating for anything other than leave it alone.
M T Pockets 000
Well-Known Member
I have a CVA smokeless conversion. I also have a Mossberg 500 pump with a scope. I have not used the shotgun yet. I will use it this week end as the WMA allows it. I don't make the rules. I abide by them.
DoubleRidge
Well-Known Member
Agree....leave it alone is best option.
My point is more to the fact those that want it a certain way, should be doing that already. Not sometimes, but all the time.
I hear you. I agree with you, leave everything as is. Everything is fine.
Yes I would use it. But I wish they would change it from Muzzleloader to traditional or something of the sort. Exposed hammer, cartridge developed prior to 1900 or cartridge must be 100 years old or something like that. With modern muzzle loaders and smokeless it's no different than a center fire rifle.
Just to play devils advocate here but how is a smokeless muzzleloader with a scope that shoots sub MOA at 300 yards on the same playing field as a open sight 45/70?
Omega
Well-Known Member
I don't get out there for ML anymore, most times it's just too warm still. But I really don't like this weapons creep, first it was crossbows during archery, then inlines with a bunch of modern loading methods and ammo i.e Firestick, now it's straight wall. In places were hunting seasons are very short, I can see this, but here in TN, there is plenty of time to use whatever weapon you choose to during rifle season. If this keeps up, they may as well just open it up to all weapons on day one.
yeah, I see what you're saying. Not a big fan of the high-performance smokeless stuff at all.
