TN Whitetail Freak
Well-Known Member
Headhunter":2qcdtqki said:
Gonna have to agree to disagree. My observations have been different.
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Top 5 Bucks Killed at Presidents Island
- Thread starter TN Whitetail Freak
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Gonna have to agree to disagree. My observations have been different.
TN Whitetail Freak":3ajx213u said:
How wide would you estimate this buck to be? It's a west TN buck.
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DoubleRidge
Well-Known Member
How wide would you estimate this buck to be? It's a west TN buck.
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Beutiful mount......right or wrong I've always considered an average whitetail bucks ears 15 to 16 inch tip to tip...so I'd guess the buck pictured at 24" inside.
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Beutiful mount......right or wrong I've always considered an average whitetail bucks ears 15 to 16 inch tip to tip...so I'd guess the buck pictured at 24" inside.
Wow that's a good looking mount Jon. I wasn't asked but I'm guessing 20.5 inside
cbhunter":3oip1dtr said:
Just got it back from AThiker
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DoubleRidge
Well-Known Member
TX300mag":4jck3azt said:
megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
21 inside, 23 outside?
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It was a general question, not specifically for any one person. I thought it might be a good example. I should have posted the trail camera pic first.
Any more estimates?
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Any more estimates?
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DoubleRidge
Well-Known Member
Wow....my goodness he's wide.....I'll stay with 23½ inside.
TX300mag":2tqxhdm3 said:How wide would you estimate this buck to be? It's a west TN buck.
Great buck! Pm sent.
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TN Whitetail Freak
Well-Known Member
TX300mag":3inrfveu said:It was a general question, not specifically for any one person. I thought it might be a good example. I should have posted the trail camera pic first.
Any more estimates?
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25 inside 27 outside would be my guess.
Trail cam definitely show him better
I killed this buck in Henderson Co last year. Docpoco and a couple other neighbors had several Trail am pics of him (I don't run them).
Docpoco and I were guessing 22" inside based on pics, but nobody we were aware of had seen him in person.
I had forgotten about this buck and didn't even think about it being him until I sent a pic to docpoco after I killed him.
He was 20 3/4" inside. He was a special buck to me as I killed him with my 10 year-old daughter on my family's farm, so I asked AThiker to mount him. I think he lost 1/2" spread by the time he was mounted.
This is the only deer I've killed that is truly over 20" inside. I was within 1/4" with a buck I killed in 2014, and I THINK he may be the only true 20" buck I've seen while hunting-at least one Tennessee.
They're out there, but they're not a common occurrence from my experience. Spread is tough to judge in the field; I'm not a fan of antler restrictions that rely on such a skill that's tough to be exact. And it is a skill as confirmed by a CB and mega-you guys nailed it. But most aren't as accurate.
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Docpoco and I were guessing 22" inside based on pics, but nobody we were aware of had seen him in person.
I had forgotten about this buck and didn't even think about it being him until I sent a pic to docpoco after I killed him.
He was 20 3/4" inside. He was a special buck to me as I killed him with my 10 year-old daughter on my family's farm, so I asked AThiker to mount him. I think he lost 1/2" spread by the time he was mounted.
This is the only deer I've killed that is truly over 20" inside. I was within 1/4" with a buck I killed in 2014, and I THINK he may be the only true 20" buck I've seen while hunting-at least one Tennessee.
They're out there, but they're not a common occurrence from my experience. Spread is tough to judge in the field; I'm not a fan of antler restrictions that rely on such a skill that's tough to be exact. And it is a skill as confirmed by a CB and mega-you guys nailed it. But most aren't as accurate.
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DoubleRidge
Well-Known Member
Two fine bucks!! Thanks for sharing!! Interesting exercise that I wish more would have participated in? Would have been interesting to see what the average guess was over a larger sample size.
Agree that judging spread in the field is a skill that's tough to be exact.....no doubt.
Over time I've also learned that when taking a picture of a picture...like when reviewing trail cam pics and you use cell camera to take pic of computer screen....angle is everything to accurately portray dimensions of rack.
But back to "the rule"....without the 20" rule.....the buck seated left on couch gets a pass on President's Island.....and that would be a shame...... eliminate the 20" rule and say 8 point or better and the likelihood of 2½ yo bucks being killed increases....so I'm not sure what the answer is?
Agree that judging spread in the field is a skill that's tough to be exact.....no doubt.
Over time I've also learned that when taking a picture of a picture...like when reviewing trail cam pics and you use cell camera to take pic of computer screen....angle is everything to accurately portray dimensions of rack.
But back to "the rule"....without the 20" rule.....the buck seated left on couch gets a pass on President's Island.....and that would be a shame...... eliminate the 20" rule and say 8 point or better and the likelihood of 2½ yo bucks being killed increases....so I'm not sure what the answer is?
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
Wrong.DoubleRidge":3vyy1sll said:
The buck seated on the left gets killed on President's Island regardless any antler restrictions or no antler restrictions at all.
In the case of President's Island WMA,
just what or how much difference do you think it would make
should there be ZERO antler restrictions rather that what's in place now?
It's my opinion that the antler restrictions are of almost ZERO relevance as to what survives until the next year on President's Island (at least with the current hunting structure). When the annual buck hunting is limited to so few days, and that being archery only, antler restrictions become nothing but little beyond over-regulation?
Tell me how I'm wrong with this thinking.
And never mind, there are more hunter hours logged annually (on PI) by hunters with rifles hunting "same as statewide" (not subjected to any antler restrictions).
By the way, if I remember correctly, that 20" option came about due to hunter complaints that the 9-point rule was doing more harm than good, for a variety of reasons. Initially, the "manager" proposed a 22" spread rule, which made even less sense than the 20" one.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
You best never come hunt a "trophy" WMA in Kentucky thinking that,TN Whitetail Freak":3j0feitg said:
as you will leave with a smaller wallet :tu:
Many "trophy" WMAs have a 15" outside spread rule, in part because ear tip to ear tip of most adult bucks is approximately 15".
For one to be sure a rack is in fact 15" or more, one needs to observe the antlers being at least marginally wider than the ears (assuming buck is alert, facing the hunter).
MOST adult bucks that are clearly "wider than the ears", but only by a small margin,
will be over 15" but less than 18".
Whether we're talking West KY or West TN,
most bucks significantly wider than their ears
will have an OUTSIDE spread of less than 20".
I doubt even 1% of the bucks with antlers "wider than the ears" will equal or exceed 20 inches.
DoubleRidge
Well-Known Member
TheLBLman":2imo6zvu said:
When I said the buck on the left of couch would get a pass without the 20" rule.....I obviously meant by WMA archery permit holders.
But I get your point.....limited archery hunting has little influence over the herd and over-regulation does nothing.
Thanks
I totally agree with everything LBL man just said! There is not enough hunting for the rules in place to even be necessary. I watched that when the manager ask for a 22inch spread, he said that it would put them more in line with Catoosa and others. No Catoosa is 4 points on one Side or 15 inch spread. It only went to 20 because a commissioner requested it. 20 inches is way outside the ears as the picture I put on illustrates. I have put in for 10years and know the rules in place , I am not complaining but neither one makes any sense to me. You can kill a 2.5 year old 10 point but a 5.5 year old 19 inch wide 8 point gets a pass? Strange rules to me, also are guys that wait 13 years for a hunt going to shoot a bunch of small bucks and decimate the future at the island? Floods have done way more damage than two bow hunts a year will ever do. Just my opinion in no way am I a biologist .
DoubleRidge
Well-Known Member
deerfever":181lx1pc said:
So the answer is no antler regulations.
Each hunter can self regulate.
Limited number of archery only tags coupled with low success rates....very little impact on herd overall anyway.
Wonder if it was actually this way from day-1 if it would take 13 years to draw today? (I have 9 points and I'm not a biologist either)
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
DoubleRidge, please accept my apologies if I came across as condescending, as I do get a little excited at times, but do do not mean to come across the way I may have sounded.DoubleRidge":208gvkzx said:
When the PI WMA was originally established as a public-hunting WMA (approx 15 years ago), it was advertised to be a new "trophy" buck hunting destination for the public land hunter. However, as I understand it, the actual contract between the Memphis Port Authority and the TWRA was calling for TWRA to simply manage the island's deer herd for a significant reduction in deer density, since the deer were causing too many automobile accidents and eating up too much of the area farmers' soybeans. The other part of the agreement was that the hunting would be limited to archery only. If not for this archery only directive from the Port Authority, I fully believe TWRA would have made this hunt a shotgun/muzzleloader hunt.
But at any rate, between what TWRA did and what Mother Nature did even better, the deer density reduction goal appears to have been achieved.
Today, my thinking is that of all the various items effecting the ongoing deer herd at PI WMA,
those antler restrictions may have the least impact as to which bucks survive from one year to the next.
Anyone crediting those antler restrictions for either the prior good hunting or the current bad hunting has been very mislead.
And again, all the bucks living on the island are within the rut-range of all the private land hunters hunting this same island, and these hunters are exempt from those antler restrictions. These hunters are also hunting continuously from late September to early January under "statewide" regs, including being legal to use centerfire rifles. By comparison, the public land archery hunters on the island have 2 weekends (only 1 during the rut).
Just to interject a thought, can you imagine how many large antlered mature bucks would be running around TN if the entire state were limited to two weekends of archery-only buck hunting each year? Would we need any antler restrictions?
By no means am I opposed to all antler restrictions, as in areas of a lot more hunting, they can be a great tool in allowing younger bucks to live another year or two. Initially, the first year or two of the PI WMA, those AR's likely did more good than harm, mainly to influence hunter mindset, and insure too many younger bucks would not get killed. But today, hunter mindset (even "statewide") is in a different world than 15 years ago, we know the public bowhunters are not going to kill a significant number of bucks on PI WMA with only a couple weekends to hunt, and those particular antler restrictions seem to be more harm than good.
Meanwhile, it's a vastly different circumstance on the Catoosa WMA (10 times more hunting days, many with a rifle) where antler restrictions appear to be doing much more good than harm.
IDEALLY, if there is to be "shooter" buck criteria, it should be age-based more than antler-based.
That's often not ideal, and my personal trophy buck management criteria is no restrictions whatsoever as to which particular bucks are legal.
ironically, more top-end antlered older bucks may be produced WITHOUT antler restrictions, simply because the typical antler restrictions being used actually cause an increase in harvest of the best antlered younger bucks, leaving mainly the smaller-antlered bucks to move on to the older ages.
But on PI WMA, AR's simply make almost no difference in what survives to the next year, and I'd rather see the bowhunters get a few more of whatever bucks they might consider a "trophy". It's just a shame that many older bucks (legal via the 9-point antler restrictions) end up getting passed because the bowhunters can not always ascertain 9 or more points at least 1.0 inches in length. And of course, seems every year we hear about a fully mature world class mainframe 8-pointer illegal to the public land bowhunter, killed as a world-class trophy buck on the bordering property; or run over by a car, or drowning in next spring's flood. Heck, over the years, it certainly appears far more bucks have drowned and been run over by trucks around the island than have been killed by hunters.
More pointedly . . . . . .
How many bucks did bowhunters kill on the PI WMA in 2019?
How many bucks did private land hunters on PI kill in 2019?
P.S. If they killed two, they killed 100% more than the bowhunters on the PI WMA.
How many bucks were run over (and killed) via a motor vehicle in 2019 either on or within 1 mile of PI?
How many bucks will drown on & around the island between now and this coming spring?
How much can antler restrictions effect what lives from one year to the next?
The questions are many, the answers are few
I am guessing the answer to your question doubleridge is yes it would still be as good and still take years to be drawn because of so few permits. Again people putting in for the island from the beginning knew what type of place it was and most went in for that dream buck. The only difference in the beginning there was no priority system like we have now and some guys hunted it two maybe three times just by luck of the draw. I honestly don't think it would have made a difference in most cases, however I could be wrong. I don't mind the rule as obviously I have been putting in, the rule simply does not make sense to me. If anything why not just a 4 point on one side and 15 inch spread as a rule on a bow hunt ? You will probably have to wait 5 more years to be drawn. Anyone waiting 14 years for a hunt is probably not having a problem waiting on a good buck. As that is why most went there in the beginning. Again just an opinion, I am probably wrong and if those restrictions were not in place from the beginning it may not be half the place it is now and a a man could get drawn every year! With 50 guys bow hunting it once a year and half those years or more getting bad weather on the three day hunt, I just don't see that. From description thickets abound on the place and it's a big bucks dream to hide in, trees are not always accessible to hunt in certain areas so sanctuary areas are abundent. Do I believe that more deer would have been killed , certainly but probably not enough to make a difference .I would hope some of the guys that have talked about 8 pointers that dreams are made of walking under them would have filled a tag . I still believe way more are dying of natural causes , cars and other events, than the archers ever thought about on a 3 day hunt with only one day of scouting. Again just my thoughts and definitely wouldn't be the first time that I have been wrong.
