Top 5 Bucks Killed at Presidents Island

[DoubleRidge]

TheLBLman......no appology needed but I do appreciate the explanation. You make several good points. The comparison between PI and Catoosa is very interesting. And I couldn't agree more that hunter mindset statewide is different than it was 15 years ago.....the concept of no antler restrictions actually producing more mature bucks (on PI) makes sense.... interesting conversation....thanks.

 

[DoubleRidge]

I am guessing the answer to your question doubleridge is yes it would still be as good and still take years to be drawn because of so few permits. Again people putting in for the island from the beginning knew what type of place it was and most went in for that dream buck. The only difference in the beginning there was no priority system like we have now and some guys hunted it two maybe three times just by luck of the draw. I honestly don't think it would have made a difference in most cases, however I could be wrong. I don't mind the rule as obviously I have been putting in, the rule simply does not make sense to me. If anything why not just a 4 point on one side and 15 inch spread as a rule on a bow hunt ? You will probably have to wait 5 more years to be drawn. Anyone waiting 14 years for a hunt is probably not having a problem waiting on a good buck. As that is why most went there in the beginning. Again just an opinion, I am probably wrong and if those restrictions were not in place from the beginning it may not be half the place it is now and a a man could get drawn every year! With 50 guys bow hunting it once a year and half those years or more getting bad weather on the three day hunt, I just don't see that. From description thickets abound on the place and it's a big bucks dream to hide in, trees are not always accessible to hunt in certain areas so sanctuary areas are abundent. Do I believe that more deer would have been killed , certainly but probably not enough to make a difference .I would hope some of the guys that have talked about 8 pointers that dreams are made of walking under them would have filled a tag . I still believe way more are dying of natural causes , cars and other events, than the archers ever thought about on a 3 day hunt with only one day of scouting. Again just my thoughts and definitely wouldn't be the first time that I have been wrong.

Deerfever.....I agree.....limited tags....archery only has more impact on hunter interest and it's gonna be a tough tag to draw no matter what.....and zero doubt the floods, car collision, natural causes kill more deer than bow hunters..... interesting conversation....you and LBLman make several good points.......I do wish we could catch a few years with no flooding but nothing we can do about it that.....9 years in now.....too far down river to paddle back now.

 

[TheLBLman]

Thanks, DoubleRidge.

..... the concept of no antler restrictions actually producing more mature bucks (on PI) makes sense.... interesting conversation....thanks.

Let me rephrase that a bit.
I'm not saying that no antler restrictions produces more bucks,
since antler restrictions should result in more bucks living another year.

I am saying the difference between the current antler restrictions and no antler restrictions at all on PI WMA
would be negligible in determining which bucks survive another year.

I am saying that among the mature bucks, WITHOUT antler restrictions, a higher percentage of those mature bucks may be the ones born with superior antler genetics.
WITH antler restrictions, a higher percentage of those mature bucks may be the ones born with inferior antler genetics.

If your goal is to kill a very large antlered mature buck, your chances of that might be higher in an area that does not have any antler restrictions.

IMO, the main benefit of antler restrictions is when they are used in areas that simply have too much hunting, and the deer managers are making the call that antler restrictions are better than reducing the number of hunting days (or the number of hunters, or the buck limits, etc.) Antler restrictions may also be used to increase the doe harvest, which may have been the real main reason they were put into use on PI WMA.

So today, is there too much deer hunting occuring on PI WMA?
And/or is the deer density so high that antler restrictions are needed on the bucks to augment the doe kill?

 

[DoubleRidge]

Makes sense that the main benefit of antler restrictions is when they are used in areas that simply have too much hunting....unlike on PI where the restrictions would be negligible in determining which bucks survive another year.....agree, interesting conversation......thanks again for the explanation.

 

[megalomaniac]

Wes nailed it for sure.

Another example on a smaller scale.... I have NO antler restrictions on my farms. Just get to shoot 1 buck of your choice, then you're done.

Adult hunters self regulate and pass up bucks that would be legal on PI (weve passed a 135 in 10 4 times, 140in 9 twice, 130in 9 once, and numerous 120 to 130in bucks. Noone wants to tag out unless it's on one of the very few really big deer on our place. But kids killed a 111 in 3.5 yo, and a 105in 3.5 yo. No big deal. They made their choice to kill the buck they chose because they liked him.

If you severely limit the number of bucks taken off an area (whether that be by ARs, number of days hunting, age restrictions, buck limits, or whatever.... the net result is you are recruiting enough deer into older age classes that some will end up as trophies despite whatever you kill.

Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk

 

[DoubleRidge]

.

If you severely limit the number of bucks taken off an area (whether that be by ARs, number of days hunting, age restrictions, buck limits, or whatever.... the net result is you are recruiting enough deer into older age classes that some will end up as trophies despite whatever you kill.

Mega... your last paragraph is an excellent summary of the conversation.

On our farm we have tried to manage by age restrictions and even with only a few hunting it's challenging.

Minimum score restrictions can also prove to be challenging....maybe not for bucks we have trail cam history with.....but we always have those bucks that show up and sometimes a quick decision has to be made.

So for us setting a low buck limit ....coupled with minimal pressure on the property .....has proven to be the most effective method to manage our farm.

You know...it's at this point of the conversation where in some circles many will say "don't stress out so much over what deer get shot....just go hunting and shoot what makes you happy"......I just smile and say.....that's exactly what we're attempting to do..... shooting mature bucks makes us happy.....that's the management goal we've set (even though some years it means never touching the trigger).

 

[TheLBLman]

If you severely limit the number of bucks taken off an area (whether that be by ARs, number of days hunting, age restrictions, buck limits, or whatever.... the net result is you are recruiting enough deer into older age classes that some will end up as trophies despite whatever you kill.

BINGO!

It's just that with PI WMA, the number of bucks that potentially could be taken has already been so greatly limited by having only 2 weekends of archery-only buck hunting annually, that neither antler restrictions nor age restrictions can contribute as much as they take away (in terms of hunter opportunity). Those unnecessary antler restrictions actually cause many hunters to be unable to kill the very trophy bucks of their lifetimes simply because some only have 8 points, some cannot be sure there are 9 or more points over an inch long, at least during the few seconds of opportunity that may present for the hunter.

Another problem with these antler restrictions is they exacerbate hunter high-grading for the best antler genetics, killing the largest antlered younger bucks, while leaving mainly the smaller antlered bucks as the survivors growing older. This is what some call bass-ackards, if the goal is to produce older bucks with larger antlers.
This is more in the context of antler score (or how many tines over an inch long), while noting maximum antler mass typically is not achieved by any individual buck before he reaches the age of 5 1/2 years.

Would you prefer to see the bucks with the best antler genetics living to maturity, or mainly just the ones with the smaller antler genetics?

In terms of the "trophy" hunter opportunities for next year and the next,
which do you think does more harm?
A hunter killing a 1 1/2-yr-old buck mainframe 8-pointer
- or - a hunter killing a top-end 2 1/2-yr-old mainframe 9-pointer buck?

Which is more harmful to managing for "trophy" bucks?
A hunter killing a 2 1/2-yr-old mainframe 9-pointer
- or - a hunter killing a 4 1/2 yr-old mainframe 8-pointer?
I'd also ask which is the better "trophy" to most hunters?

How about a young buck with a 20" spread
- or - a mature buck with a huge 8-pt rack, that is 19" wide?
Which is the better trophy to the hunter today, which is better to let live for the future hunter?

It's not just the answers to these question that matter or don't matter,
but the issue of hunters being able to quickly take advantage of an opportunity
to kill whichever buck, that opportunity often being only a few seconds.

Over the years, many hunters have let a much larger anterled 4 1/2-yr-old buck walk
simply because they weren't sure the buck had at least 9 points over an inch long.
Then later killed a younger buck with better anter genetics when that younger buck just stood around giving the hunter more opportunity to study the antlers.
In this common scenario, both the hunter and the deer manager should be happier to see the hunter kill that 4 1/2-yr-old buck, which would be the case WITHOUT the antler restrictions.
The assumption is that the better antler genetics (at least in terms of growing multiple tines over an inch long) of the younger buck
results later in a much larger antlered older buck, should that younger buck be the survivor, rather than the current living older buck surviving.

 

[TheLBLman]

Just saying, especially if you cannot answer the above questions,
the antler restrictions there at best, are of little value, and many hunters and deer managers as well
see them (there) as doing more harm than good, both to the hunters and to the prospects of producing larger-antlered older bucks.

Again, just how much difference does it make how many bucks get saved by those antler restrictions on the PI WMA
when many of those bucks "saved" are circling the island with their rut-ranging, walking into the rifle range of those hunting the private lands "same as statewide"?
And of course, some will get run over, some will drown, although any these issues are typically present everywhere.

Want more of the best antlered young bucks to live to maturity?
The most successful method is less hunting across the entire rut range of all those bucks.
There are very few places where that is even possible,
other than as allowed per statewide deer regs.
But who would want a statewide season in TN of only two weekends, archery only?

 

[JCDEERMAN]

If you severely limit the number of bucks taken off an area (whether that be by ARs, number of days hunting, age restrictions, buck limits, or whatever.... the net result is you are recruiting enough deer into older age classes that some will end up as trophies despite whatever you kill.

BINGO!

That is it in a nutshell

We have a few guys on our place that shoot 2-3 bucks total combined each year that are 1.5 - 2.5 yo small 4-8 pointers. Friends always ask, "Does it make you mad that they shot those deer?"....and my answer is NO - it is either their biggest deer, or it is the one time they get to hunt that year, first buck, whatever....

If you kill 2-3 of those bucks each year on the area of a square mile, which is about the size of our property, it will not make that much of an impact. We have had an ample supply of mature bucks to go after each year and have had great luck at killing them the last several years consecutively

.....For the exception of this year - EHD whiped them out :tu:

 

[jb Deloach]

I killed this buck in Henderson Co last year. Docpoco and a couple other neighbors had several Trail am pics of him (I don't run them).

Docpoco and I were guessing 22" inside based on pics, but nobody we were aware of had seen him in person.

I had forgotten about this buck and didn't even think about it being him until I sent a pic to docpoco after I killed him.

He was 20 3/4" inside. He was a special buck to me as I killed him with my 10 year-old daughter on my family's farm, so I asked AThiker to mount him. I think he lost 1/2" spread by the time he was mounted.

This is the only deer I've killed that is truly over 20" inside. I was within 1/4" with a buck I killed in 2014, and I THINK he may be the only true 20" buck I've seen while hunting-at least one Tennessee.

They're out there, but they're not a common occurrence from my experience. Spread is tough to judge in the field; I'm not a fan of antler restrictions that rely on such a skill that's tough to be exact. And it is a skill as confirmed by a CB and mega-you guys nailed it. But most aren't as accurate.

[email protected]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Rockhound]

Deer past the ears tend to make 20" outside

No... just no... lol

 

[Iglow]

Wonder if anybody ever finds sheds down there?

 

[AlabamaSwamper]

I never understood why with such restricted numbers of tags and bow only that ARs were even needed on a place like PI

 

[BSK]

I never understood why with such restricted numbers of tags and bow only that ARs were even needed on a place like PI

It was an experiment started back when it was believed that was the best way to produce the largest antlered bucks. It was wrong, but no one really knew that at the time.

 

[killingtime 41]

It was an experiment started back when it was believed that was the best way to produce the largest antlered bucks. It was wrong, but no one really knew that at the time.

Is there a case at all to be said for antler restrictions say 4 on one side and or 20 inch spread. Different area I speak of. But just a question in your opinion. Does it save 2.5 year old bucks like they say they are trying to do on this WMA I speak of. Or is it completely the opposite ?

 

[knightrider]

Is there a case at all to be said for antler restrictions say 4 on one side and or 20 inch spread. Different area I speak of. But just a question in your opinion. Does it save 2.5 year old bucks like they say they are trying to do on this WMA I speak of. Or is it completely the opposite ?

It highgrades out all your great 2.5 and 3.5 in my opinion, and leaves you with a bunch of mature bullies that dont meet the restrictions. It does save alot of 2.5 but when they hit the point restrictions at 3.5 theyre gone. Of course we all know the best thing is to go strictly by age and let the hunter decide but you cant trust the general public to be able to do so

 

[BSK]

Is there a case at all to be said for antler restrictions say 4 on one side and or 20 inch spread.

Antler restrictions are completely counter productive. What you end up doing is high grading out the best younger bucks. This means the only bucks that make it to maturity are ones with smaller antlers.

Different area I speak of. But just a question in your opinion. Does it save 2.5 year old bucks like they say they are trying to do on this WMA I speak of. Or is it completely the opposite ?

The absolutely best way to save bucks under 3 1/2 is to set an age-limit of 3 1/2. Hunters will say it's too hard to learn to judge age. That's simply not true. Hunters can be taught to do it fairly easily and fairly accurately. Look at the number of hunters on here who will all agree on a buck's age when looking at a trail-camera picture.

The easiest way to protect bucks into the older age-classes - short of an age restriction - is simply to limit the total number of bucks being killed. If you "run the numbers" (set up a hypothetical deer population and then test different harvest strategies, watching the buck population and age-structure over time), a harvest strategy of simply killing less bucks than in the past improves the buck age-structure. It's not as effective or as fast as an age restriction, but it works.