Turkey Limits

[FARMTOFIELD]

North alabama is experiencing the same decline as southern middle.

I had an alabama biologist tell me that the tennessee river valley wasn't conducive for turkeys to live and that's why the 1000's we had died out lol what a freaking joke

 

[ZachMarkus]

I can't explain what happened to our turkeys in Lawrence county to start with, they just disappeared over the course of a year or two but I do think what is keeping them from coming back is poor hatches and a 4 bird limit. Back in the day when we had a great turkey population we didn't really notice a bad hatch or two and we would always bounce back, for example on my 1500 acre farm in southern Lawrence county we used to have 2 different flocks with 75-100 birds each in them, 20-25 toms total. Those same two flocks are down to 10-15 hens and 5 or 6 tons total. If the majority of those hens nests get busted up by predators or if it floods and washes some away and the guys on the neighboring property are still shooting the toms that are left then we're just going backwards. I haven't killed a turkey off that farm since 2009 but the neighbors are still killing 3 or 4 every year. If we keep on at the pace we are going they will never bounce back. Everybody keeps telling me there's way more turkeys this year than there has been but that's not the case where I'm hunting, my two Giles county places that used to be loaded are completely void of turkeys this year.

 

[Setterman]

Check out Georgia this year. They've killed some pitiful number of birds so far.

No one listens. But it's the influx of tent hunters and blinds taking way too many longbeards each year that would've otherwise survived.

Outlaw that and see what happens. If it doesn't help, open it up again. Pretty damn simple

 

[ZachMarkus]

No one listens. But it's the influx of tent hunters and blinds taking way too many longbeards each year that would've otherwise survived.

Outlaw that and see what happens. If it doesn't help, open it up again. Pretty ***** simple

I won't argue with that, same goes for fanning too, to be honest there are a couple of toms that I killed behind a fan that I'm almost certain I wouldn't have killed without it, they were 4 or 5 year old turkeys that were dang near impossible to kill without fanning or bushwacking one.

 

[poorhunter]

I'm beginning to think this problem is more widespread than I thought and getting worse. Gobbling activity is down over the short 3 years I've been in the state, but I can't make a judgement based of such a short time span. Too many of you experienced guys are seeing a problem, so I will defer to y'all on this. Now, how do we get TWRA to listen? I think lowering limits will help, but I think a bigger problem is nest predation. Killing 20 of the 25 gobblers on a 1500 acre with a hundred hens doesn't make that population go in the tank. Those 5 gobblers left won't have a problem breeding 100 hens. Disease, nest predation and hen killing will.

 

[ZachMarkus]

Killing 20 of the 25 gobblers on a 1500 acre with a hundred hens doesn't make that population go in the tank. Those 5 gobblers left won't have a problem breeding 100 hens. Disease, nest predation and hen killing will.

No one killed 20-25 gobblers, I'm saying on average that's how many we would have to hunt back when we had turkeys, pre 2009. We don't have 100 hens, we have 30-35 hens and 5 or 6 toms total. When your neighbor kills his limit every year and the hens don't raise any jakes to replace the toms that got killed then you don't have any the next year.

 

[poorhunter]

Killing 20 of the 25 gobblers on a 1500 acre with a hundred hens doesn't make that population go in the tank. Those 5 gobblers left won't have a problem breeding 100 hens. Disease, nest predation and hen killing will.

No one killed 20-25 gobblers, I'm saying on average that's how many we would have to hunt back when we had turkeys, pre 2009. We don't have 100 hens, we have 30-35 hens and 5 or 6 toms total. When your neighbor kills his limit every year and the hens don't raise any jakes to replace the toms that got killed then you don't have any the next year.

Sorry Zach, I didn't mean that you had killed that many toms. Just that even if that many were killed, the remaining toms could still breed all the hens. The problem is that when your flock had/has other problems (disease, predation, overkill of hens by neighbors etc.) your population will decline. It's more than 4 bird limits, but with the 4 bird limit they can't recover the population very well. Sorry for making it sound like I was blaming you for your own problem!

 

[Woodsman10]

Killing 20 of the 25 gobblers on a 1500 acre with a hundred hens doesn't make that population go in the tank. Those 5 gobblers left won't have a problem breeding 100 hens. Disease, nest predation and hen killing will.

No one killed 20-25 gobblers, I'm saying on average that's how many we would have to hunt back when we had turkeys, pre 2009. We don't have 100 hens, we have 30-35 hens and 5 or 6 toms total. When your neighbor kills his limit every year and the hens don't raise any jakes to replace the toms that got killed then you don't have any the next year.

Sorry Zach, I didn't mean that you had killed that many toms. Just that even if that many were killed, the remaining toms could still breed all the hens. The problem is that when your flock had/has other problems (disease, predation, overkill of hens by neighbors etc.) your population will decline. It's more than 4 bird limits, but with the 4 bird limit they can't recover the population very well. Sorry for making it sound like I was blaming you for your own problem!

This is correct. It just isn't the four bird limit.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

 

[ZachMarkus]

I realize it isn't just the 4 bird limit but it certainly doesn't help when the hens aren't raising any poults. On a good note I have killed over 100 armadillos, several skunks, possums and coons over the last 2 years so hopefully that will save a few nest.

 

[Setterman]

I'm beginning to think this problem is more widespread than I thought and getting worse. Gobbling activity is down over the short 3 years I've been in the state, but I can't make a judgement based of such a short time span. Too many of you experienced guys are seeing a problem, so I will defer to y'all on this. Now, how do we get TWRA to listen? I think lowering limits will help, but I think a bigger problem is nest predation. Killing 20 of the 25 gobblers on a 1500 acre with a hundred hens doesn't make that population go in the tank. Those 5 gobblers left won't have a problem breeding 100 hens. Disease, nest predation and hen killing will.

No it doesn't but if of the five remaining 2 die to natural mortality, and let's say you had 10 jakes but only 6 survive, the following year you have 9 mature longbeards. Of those 9 several will be so subordinate that they don't gobble, several will have so many hens they don't gobble, and several will be workable birds. So in year 1 when the woods echoed with gobbling birds it's easy to see why the next year it may suck. Throw in a bad hatch, and it gets even worse, throw in fall hunting and it gets worse.

 

[deerchaser007]

Anybody ever considered what impact the massive influx of new hunters recently might be having? Combine that with all the previously mentioned threats and it could have a huge impact.

If Twra had done any of this wisely they would've separated out turkey licenses to track hunter numbers.

Spot on setterman! And these new turkey hunters are hunting ground that they have deer hunted for years, but no turkey hunting was done. This is how harvest numbers can remain steady, or slightly decline little by little.

 

[deerchaser007]

Anyone think nesting success could improve if turkey season opened a week later?

I may be mistaken, but I believe one of the reasons given for opening the annual turkey season later on many WMA's (later than the "statewide" opener) has been "to improve nesting success". Note how many WMA's have their first quota hunts a week or two later than the statewide season opens.

This might be part of why KY opens their turkey season 2 weeks later than TN as well?

Perhaps we kill off too many Toms before they're finished breeding, then maybe there's not enough to insure fertilized eggs when hens have to re-nest following their first nest being broken up by egg-eating predators?

Nobody likes to hear it, but no state has done a better job at turkey management than Missouri. Everything they have done is to protect and grow the population. They understand the importance of not removing to many of your adult toms to early for breeding. Thus, only 1 bird allowed the first week. No hunting after 1 PM to let the flock gather if busted by a hunt so breeding is not offset. Fall turkey limits and county settings of limits set to a strict # based of brood survey. They take their turkey more serious than any other state, period. And it shows in their spring harvest.

 

[megalomaniac]

Anyone think nesting success could improve if turkey season opened a week later?

I may be mistaken, but I believe one of the reasons given for opening the annual turkey season later on many WMA's (later than the "statewide" opener) has been "to improve nesting success". Note how many WMA's have their first quota hunts a week or two later than the statewide season opens.

This might be part of why KY opens their turkey season 2 weeks later than TN as well?

Perhaps we kill off too many Toms before they're finished breeding, then maybe there's not enough to insure fertilized eggs when hens have to re-nest following their first nest being broken up by egg-eating predators?

I've been saying this for a DECADE. no one listens.

Any turkey biologist with half a brain knows that you HAVE to set season openers AFTER the 'majority' of hens have been fertilized. In Middle TN, average breeding starts around April 7, with nest initiation around April 15th. Just delaying opening of season start 2 weeks would allow us to shoot EVERY SINGLE mature gobbler annually (jakes must NOT be shot in that scenario), yet the population would not be harmed significantly overall.

I'd prefer to go to a 2 bird limit with season opening on april 15th, but I could live with an unlimited limit on mature gobblers in the spring with a delayed season opener.

This is exactly the reason I chose not to hunt my dominant birds with hens this year and just focus on the young 2 y/o's on the edges of my properties until next week. I'll come back up and hunt the big birds next week knowing they have done their job and ensured what few hens I have left will have fertile nests.

 

[deerchaser007]

As far as baiting, just remember the baited area and 250 yard radius rule.

All in all, none of us will ever agree until most of the state is experiencing exactly what southern middle is, and continues to have. A Problem! Until it reaches you and your hunting grounds, do you really care? Of course not. As long as you ain't seeing the problem, it must not be a problem at all.

Man I feel like this is spot on. I hear people not from my area say there are turkeys there you just don't know how to find them, or yall must have killed them out, or they act like your an idiot.

I have seen it in person it is bad. If the season was closed in southern Lawrence County it would get better but it absolutely will not get any better here if the limit is 4 or 1.

I knew of a decent flock this year on about 10,000 acres of land. That flock consisted of 2 toms and a few hens, IMO that's a decent flock to get started with. This property USE to hold 15-20 toms and numerous hens.

Well guess what that starter flock was killed out opening morning the 2 toms were shot off the limb opening morning. So we're just stuck at 0 for another year just like the last 10.

I am with you sir. I am in cannon county and I see it coming. I feel your concern, I really do. Sadly, it takes total devastation of a area to kick things off and it starts trending outward from there. It is trending out from those areas. It will get worse in Alabama, it will get worse in middle TN.

I don't want any of you to think I am bashing twra. I'm not! ALOT of smart people knew these days was coming. And yes, it will get worse before it gets better. Why? Because most all states just got their population at sustained hunting levels. But, it's guess work the past 10 years on how to manage that sustained population. Their was no magic book on turkey management after restoration. I am more disappointed in NWTF than I am twra. NWTF should have stepped in years ago to help States with management strategies after the restocking. That's my opinion though. I'm just disappointed in twra that they are not trying to do anything. For our southern middle TN counties, you can return to restoration procedures without restocking. But, to do that, you have to protect the flocks in counties that are close to them and are sustaining populations and them flocks expand back into the areas that are lower. You can't do that with our limits.

 

[deerchaser007]

Anyone think nesting success could improve if turkey season opened a week later?

I may be mistaken, but I believe one of the reasons given for opening the annual turkey season later on many WMA's (later than the "statewide" opener) has been "to improve nesting success". Note how many WMA's have their first quota hunts a week or two later than the statewide season opens.

This might be part of why KY opens their turkey season 2 weeks later than TN as well?

Perhaps we kill off too many Toms before they're finished breeding, then maybe there's not enough to insure fertilized eggs when hens have to re-nest following their first nest being broken up by egg-eating predators?

I've been saying this for a DECADE. no one listens.

Any turkey biologist with half a brain knows that you HAVE to set season openers AFTER the 'majority' of hens have been fertilized. In Middle TN, average breeding starts around April 7, with nest initiation around April 15th. Just delaying opening of season start 2 weeks would allow us to shoot EVERY SINGLE mature gobbler annually (jakes must NOT be shot in that scenario), yet the population would not be harmed significantly overall.

I'd prefer to go to a 2 bird limit with season opening on april 15th, but I could live with an unlimited limit on mature gobblers in the spring with a delayed season opener.

This is exactly the reason I chose not to hunt my dominant birds with hens this year and just focus on the young 2 y/o's on the edges of my properties until next week. I'll come back up and hunt the big birds next week knowing they have done their job and ensured what few hens I have left will have fertile nests.

Mega, this year is weird. Let me know what you see when you return. Great post

 

[AXL78]

LBLMan, I am with you on the experience aspect. To me it is more important to turkey hunting than most others activities. I should say gobbling is one of the most important aspects of turkey hunting. I don't even necessarily feel as if I've gone turkey hunting without gobbling. It is as about as exciting as killing a bird to hear the initial gobbles in the morning, and to hear in them in multiple locations. When I first started it was anyway, and that is what I associate "turkey hunting" with. I can feel as if I had the complete experience just hearing them in the morning and at some point have one answer me, if only once or a couple of times. If he even makes me think he answered me I am euphoric. I would sacrifice a lot for experiences like that, and how I remember it not too many years ago, but its been a while. Whether or not I remember it correctly or am somewhat fantasizing it is up for debate. Probably a mixture of both, but it was really enjoyable. It was one of the most exciting things I have experienced in the outdoors. Obviously some mornings they were distant and faint, but some mornings were explosive and chaotic at first light. Now, my expectations and excitement level are not nearly the same. It is still fun and enjoyable, but I really would like a more enjoyable experience than I currently get, and that could be as much my fault as anything.

 

[muddyboots]

There is hope. Ours in Hardin county have been doing the same thing. It isn't killing too many turkeys or killing them 2 early here. I always find egg shells here on opening day. I think they breed here early. I run 2 cameras thru the months of February and March. In the past years I would get pics of a pretty fair number of gobblers but not like 10 years ago. What I didn't get was very many pics of hens. There just wasn't many. This year totally different. I got lots of pics of gobblers and hens this year. It's not back like it was before the limit changed but I think with number of Jakes I have seen next year will b even better. I have a friend who used to b the local Twra agent here. He adamantly claims its several bad hatches on a row. I argued it was the limit. After what I have seen this year I think he's right. A few good hatches and yawls counties will rebound I whole heartedly believe.

 

[megalomaniac]

He adamantly claims its several bad hatches on a row...

I agree.. like 12 years worth of bad hatches....

The question is.. 'why are we recruiting so few poults in August?'... AND .. year after year after year after year??? A bad hatch here and there is normal... but not this many in a row...

Something is wrong... are we killing toms before they can fertilize eggs? Are we disrupting their natural mating behavior? Are we peeing so much in our water systems it's making hens sterile? Did all the hens watch too many Bruce Jenner videos and now become transsexual?

Who knows? All we know is the end result... not enough poults are making it to see the 3 month of age mark. And that translates to fewer birds to hunt.

 

[TheLBLman]

Something is wrong... are we killing toms before they can fertilize eggs? Are we disrupting their natural mating behavior?

You might be on to something there.

 

[Bone Collector]

Something is wrong... are we killing toms before they can fertilize eggs? Are we disrupting their natural mating behavior?

You might be on to something there.

X2 I am always ready for it to open, but I think we should open it at least 2 weeks later, like maybe make the Juvi hunt 2 weeks later than when regular season opens and then open the statewide season, 3 weeks later.