A vote for a change in season structure

[AT Hiker]

...its up to US as hunters to have enough sense and not kill every bird on a property. I spread mine out over mulitple farms and even mulitple counties....

Seriously??? you expect the majority of turkey hunters to NOT overharvest based on local populations ???? Never gonna happen. On one of my farms, we had 4 gobblers in the area... we shot one and left the rest to ensure all hens got bred. Neighbor's 'guest' shot the remaining 3. None left 2 weeks into the season. Just hope none of the hens have to renest or the second clutch will be a dud. You just can't trust the general public to 'do the right thing'... it's all about 'me' and 'right now'.

This is the same argument used against the reduced buck limit, I personally think it is asinine. How could "we" as hunters know and control the wildlife? Back when it was up to us we about wiped out the populations, hence modern public game management.

I can save all the deer and turkeys I want but when they cross that fence its out of my control, as it should be. We rely on state managers giving us accurate and relevant info, and then we rely on law abiding hunters to follow those guidelines.

Myself and a lot of other hunters spread our pressure out amongst many pieces of lands, as to not over pressure any one spot. But how do we know that one place is already in dire need of serious management, as in the megalomanics case? Most of the time we dont, so we rely on TWRA. What if Mega went ahead and killed those 3 other toms? Many people have that mindset, they are gonna be killed anyways and I might as well be the one to do it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[darn2ten]

I like the closing the fall season in Lincoln. Problem is out of everybody that I know that hunts, not a single one of them hunts or kills turkey's in the fall, especially hens. I'm glad they're looking at it, and thinking about taking some kind of action. However, I don't believe the fall harvest in my county has any measureable impact on population. There's something else going on with the decline, hopefully we get it figured out sooner than later.

 

[Huntaholic]

Another thing, harvest report from beginning of season til april 25, 2015. This year is the lowest harvest recorded between those dates going back to the 2005 season.

birds have been much quieter this year, except for a few days. Also the season started April 4 this year and march 29 last year so there's a few days difference. Harvest reports only shows how many are killed not how may birds there are. As much pressure as I've seen on public land this year, I'm glad the birds have been more quiet than usual.


Sent from the talk of tap

Catman, I like you, I wish we lived closer cause I could see you and i being really good friends. BUT, you really need to educate yourself alittle more on turkey behavior and turkey biology before you make post like this. I will share some facts with you, this is not the only year in the past 10 years that the season has opened at the beginning of april and not end of march. You have to look at the harvest data and determine trends in them over periods, such as 5 year or 10 year periods. Yes, harvest report only shows how many are killed, and not how birds exist. BUT, you use the harvest data to indicate factors that could contribute to a decline. Simple fact is, if harvest is down, and it has trended a certain number over a 5 year or 10 year period, this could be a indicator of a serious problem. AND, that's were the work begins with biologist on the ground to find out what. I will give you a example. Look at the past 10 year period, using those dates above, and form a trend. If you look at the data, 2008 was the last time we trended this low in that period. Now here is the biology, it is highly noted that 2007 was by far the worst poult production year in tn since restoration. Broad surveys reveiled a staggering low number state wide that year. Result, low harvest in spring 2008. OK, that explains 2008, this year we are lower than 2008, what is the cause? Poult production has been down every year since 2007, never recovering broad survey numbers from those years prior. SO, is this cause and effect from that trend over the past 6 years? This is the biology that is used by not only state managers, but farm managers controlling turkey numbers on their properties.
NOW, here is your homework for tonight, you said toms are not gobbling as much and its a quiet year causing the lower harvest. Do your homework on turkey behavior and find out why turkey gobble in the first place! Why do mature toms gobble? Not using the shock gobble as a example! Why do jakes gobble? Why do young toms gobble more than mature toms? Research that and you can draw your own conclusions to why its a quiet year in your area. Because I have one farm that is totally quiet and the other was on fire with gobbles until this weekend. I know other people that are saying they are gobbling more this year than ever before. SO, why the difference? WELL, turkey behavior will give you that answer.

:super: Excellent post Jeremy. Just remember, we were young once too, like catman, except we didnt have stupid crazy limits on hens in the fall and I would like to think we would have had enough sense not to try to fill them if we did.

 

[deerchaser007]

...its up to US as hunters to have enough sense and not kill every bird on a property. I spread mine out over mulitple farms and even mulitple counties....

Seriously??? you expect the majority of turkey hunters to NOT overharvest based on local populations ???? Never gonna happen. On one of my farms, we had 4 gobblers in the area... we shot one and left the rest to ensure all hens got bred. Neighbor's 'guest' shot the remaining 3. None left 2 weeks into the season. Just hope none of the hens have to renest or the second clutch will be a dud. You just can't trust the general public to 'do the right thing'... it's all about 'me' and 'right now'.

This is the same argument used against the reduced buck limit, I personally think it is asinine. How could "we" as hunters know and control the wildlife? Back when it was up to us we about wiped out the populations, hence modern public game management.

I can save all the deer and turkeys I want but when they cross that fence its out of my control, as it should be. We rely on state managers giving us accurate and relevant info, and then we rely on law abiding hunters to follow those guidelines.

Myself and a lot of other hunters spread our pressure out amongst many pieces of lands, as to not over pressure any one spot. But how do we know that one place is already in dire need of serious management, as in the megalomanics case? Most of the time we dont, so we rely on TWRA. What if Mega went ahead and killed those 3 other toms? Many people have that mindset, they are gonna be killed anyways and I might as well be the one to do it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you rely on TWRA to determine if your specific hunting grounds is in dire need of management changes you will be SERIOUSLY disappointed with your end result. TWRA does not care about your hunting grounds. They care about quantity and management of the WHOLE state. As released by TWRA, if you don't have turkey in your area feel free to go to other portions of the state were turkey are more plentiful. In other words, if you and your hunting neighbors killed all your birds, don't tell us, we don't care, not our problem, go hunt elsewere!
Yourself and a lot of hunters that spread your hunting out are doing the best thing. Its all you can do! So how do you know when to pull off a property to not eliminate to many, learn turkey behavior! I bet you my left arm Richard(huntaholic) knows before season starts if he needs to not hunt one of his properties to keep the population in check. HOW?, 30 years experience with turkey behavior! These gentlemen such as huntaholic, setterman, mega, and others here have learned thru experience and trial and error over periods of years. They understand that turkey is not deer, and cannot be managed the same and if you do you will fail. SO, who you want to listen to, TWRA telling you to hunt elsewere, or folks like these that care about proper management and care dearly for the turkey they hunt.

We cannot control what other hunters do on their own land, but guess what, we can try to educate them before it to late. That's the purpose of this thread and most of these post. If the population was as strong as what is was 15 years ago no one would be discussing this, the limits would be fine with everyone. Most of us that hunted in those days want them days to return and try to maintain that type of hunting for our future generations. So how do we as hunters know and help control the turkey? Educate yourself on turkey behavior.The turkey will tell you when its not right, if you listen and open your eyes. And I'm serious on the listening part, turkey talk to each other, and we try to mimic some of that with our calls. How many hunters fully understand what those individual calls that turkey makes mean to other turkey? AND, more importantly, what does it mean when they don't talk to each other. That's what its all about folks!!

 

[ZachMarkus]

Deer chaser, how does learning what different sounds turkeys make to each other have anything to do with managing the population?

 

[deerchaser007]

Catman, I like you, I wish we lived closer cause I could see you and i being really good friends. BUT, you really need to educate yourself alittle more on turkey behavior and turkey biology before you make post like this. I will share some facts with you, this is not the only year in the past 10 years that the season has opened at the beginning of april and not end of march. You have to look at the harvest data and determine trends in them over periods, such as 5 year or 10 year periods. Yes, harvest report only shows how many are killed, and not how birds exist. BUT, you use the harvest data to indicate factors that could contribute to a decline. Simple fact is, if harvest is down, and it has trended a certain number over a 5 year or 10 year period, this could be a indicator of a serious problem. AND, that's were the work begins with biologist on the ground to find out what. I will give you a example. Look at the past 10 year period, using those dates above, and form a trend. If you look at the data, 2008 was the last time we trended this low in that period. Now here is the biology, it is highly noted that 2007 was by far the worst poult production year in tn since restoration. Broad surveys reveiled a staggering low number state wide that year. Result, low harvest in spring 2008. OK, that explains 2008, this year we are lower than 2008, what is the cause? Poult production has been down every year since 2007, never recovering broad survey numbers from those years prior. SO, is this cause and effect from that trend over the past 6 years? This is the biology that is used by not only state managers, but farm managers controlling turkey numbers on their properties.
NOW, here is your homework for tonight, you said toms are not gobbling as much and its a quiet year causing the lower harvest. Do your homework on turkey behavior and find out why turkey gobble in the first place! Why do mature toms gobble? Not using the shock gobble as a example! Why do jakes gobble? Why do young toms gobble more than mature toms? Research that and you can draw your own conclusions to why its a quiet year in your area. Because I have one farm that is totally quiet and the other was on fire with gobbles until this weekend. I know other people that are saying they are gobbling more this year than ever before. SO, why the difference? WELL, turkey behavior will give you that answer.[/quote]
:super: Excellent post Jeremy. Just remember, we were young once too, like catman, except we didnt have stupid crazy limits on hens in the fall and I would like to think we would have had enough sense not to try to fill them if we did.[/quote]

Yea, I'm hoping some education for the youngsters from us ole timers will turn the population around before it to late for the next generation. I fully agree hen killing is part of the problem, especially with as high as what some of the fall limits have been in this state. AND especially when you get 3 people on the same land killing their fall limits of 6 birds each!!REALLY!! :shock: That is senseless. BUT, there is more to it. Something else is going on, and I think its more than predation added into the equation also. I am really wanting to see more info and study done on chicken litter in fields. Here is why I say that. You remember the big fields down the road from my farm that the powerlines run thru? The huge bottoms? For years that has been the falling grounds for the population in that area, even as far down as my farm. That was also a restocking point, former GW said he thinks it was the 1st in the county, so the population around that release point has always been huge!! Fall flocks of 300 birds was nothing in those fields. I personally have seen years ago easily 150 birds on left side of road, and just as many on right sides during fall flocking. WELL, those were hayfields for many many years, but the past 2 years its gone to corn for local distillery. So has the big field that adjoins my farm that was cattle when you logged it, and up the road in is more corn. All corn for the distillery. AND, just like the farms in the southern part of the county that is corn, they use chicken litter! In 2 years time the turkey population in those powerline bottoms is almost gone. From 300+ fall flock population to empty fields in 2 years! I have yet to see a turkey there this spring. In prior years, nothing to see 10 gobblers down thru there. I am really thinking there is something to that theory now. AND, hope with multiple states looking into it can be ruled out. BUT, what can they do about if its found? Game agencies cannot take on the farming communities and win!

 

[deerchaser007]

Deer chaser, how does learning what different sounds turkeys make to each other have anything to do with managing the population?

Here is one example. The simple yelp! Every turkey hunter is taught this with any call they use. BUT, how many hunters know what this means when a real hen yelps? What is her reasoning for doing it? Ask yourself this, why is it I am sitting here with a call in my hand yelping, but I don't hear a single hen for 3 miles doing the same. WHY? WELL, years ago when the population was strong it was nothing to hear as many yelps as gobbles. I many times those days would see hens fly off roost into a field by herself and immediately start yelping as loud as she could, when the gobbler responded back on opposite hillsides, she would take flight again in his direction. OR, if he was on opposite side of field, she immediately took off in a sprint to get to him. This is how it should work in a proper sustained natural turkey population. Not only by hearing something this simple from a hen can tell you the population is in check, it can be a strong indicator of a problem if you not hearing it from real hens during peak breeding. Toms have already established dominance well before breeding, so hens should vocalize to the male that she is looking for him. He gobbles, she goes. Hens will always outnumber males in the population, so the hens will have to be vocal to get the attention of their male companion. SO, if hens are vocal in your local population, causing the males to have to gobble to get there attention, you can bet your hen population is at its sustained appropriate level. If hens do not have to vocalize to the gobbler, that means they don't have much competition from other hens, and have no need to yelp to their males to get his attention for breeding. Hens fight for loving much more than gobblers in a sustained natural population. She will yelp, cut, purr and cackle to fight off another hen to get her man. That's how it suppose to work. If its not, cut back on your hen killing! This is just one example of why its important to understand turkey talk and how you can apply it to management. And that is just the yelp from a hen. This is natural for them to do. SO, I will ask you the same as I asked catman, what would it mean if a gobbler is not gobbling? What provokes that gobble in him, aside from shock gobbling? pre breeding, breeding, post breeding gobbles?

 

[AT Hiker]

Deer chaser, how does learning what different sounds turkeys make to each other have anything to do with managing the population?

First things first young one...you must become one with the turkey. Only then can you hear them whisper to the turkey gods in plea of dire need. It will be up to the chosen ones to interpret what they are cognitively speaking to each other, then they will ask the turkey Yoda in a sacred smoke session what biological practice(s) they should then apply.

You see, it's pretty simple really. Now go forth and conquer...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ZachMarkus]

Thanks for clearing that up for me AT hiker.

 

[AT Hiker]

Thanks for clearing that up for me AT hiker.

Thats what Im here for


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Huntaholic]

I remember all those places you're talking about Jeremy. You may be on to something with the decline being tied to the farming practices.
Very good analogy and explanation of the vocalizations too btw. Unfortunately its all akin to casting pearls amongst swine it seems. Wonder how many would believe its possible to tell what a turkey is thinking just by looking at him?

 

[FARMTOFIELD]

I think the chicken litter has alot if not 99% to do with it, BUT from everything I've seen, they are not messing with chicken litter to prove it spreads disease. They are testing perfectly healthy birds to try to prove it isn't disease. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you ask me. ..

 

[darn2ten]

I think the chicken litter has alot if not 99% to do with it, BUT from everything I've seen, they are not messing with chicken litter to prove it spreads disease. They are testing perfectly healthy birds to try to prove it isn't disease. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you ask me. ..

I've been saying this since the beginning. Our real decline here started in the earlier 2000's. This was also about the same time fertilizer prices started to skyrocket. Many farmers went to spreading chicken manure as a cheaper alternative. Coincidence?

 

[Setterman]

Interesting on the chicken litter. Some of the guys I know in GA feel the same way, their birds declined after the farmers started using it.

 

[catman529]

Another thing, harvest report from beginning of season til april 25, 2015. This year is the lowest harvest recorded between those dates going back to the 2005 season.

birds have been much quieter this year, except for a few days. Also the season started April 4 this year and march 29 last year so there's a few days difference. Harvest reports only shows how many are killed not how may birds there are. As much pressure as I've seen on public land this year, I'm glad the birds have been more quiet than usual.


Sent from the talk of tap

Catman, I like you, I wish we lived closer cause I could see you and i being really good friends. BUT, you really need to educate yourself alittle more on turkey behavior and turkey biology before you make post like this. I will share some facts with you, this is not the only year in the past 10 years that the season has opened at the beginning of april and not end of march. You have to look at the harvest data and determine trends in them over periods, such as 5 year or 10 year periods. Yes, harvest report only shows how many are killed, and not how birds exist. BUT, you use the harvest data to indicate factors that could contribute to a decline. Simple fact is, if harvest is down, and it has trended a certain number over a 5 year or 10 year period, this could be a indicator of a serious problem. AND, that's were the work begins with biologist on the ground to find out what. I will give you a example. Look at the past 10 year period, using those dates above, and form a trend. If you look at the data, 2008 was the last time we trended this low in that period. Now here is the biology, it is highly noted that 2007 was by far the worst poult production year in tn since restoration. Broad surveys reveiled a staggering low number state wide that year. Result, low harvest in spring 2008. OK, that explains 2008, this year we are lower than 2008, what is the cause? Poult production has been down every year since 2007, never recovering broad survey numbers from those years prior. SO, is this cause and effect from that trend over the past 6 years? This is the biology that is used by not only state managers, but farm managers controlling turkey numbers on their properties.
NOW, here is your homework for tonight, you said toms are not gobbling as much and its a quiet year causing the lower harvest. Do your homework on turkey behavior and find out why turkey gobble in the first place! Why do mature toms gobble? Not using the shock gobble as a example! Why do jakes gobble? Why do young toms gobble more than mature toms? Research that and you can draw your own conclusions to why its a quiet year in your area. Because I have one farm that is totally quiet and the other was on fire with gobbles until this weekend. I know other people that are saying they are gobbling more this year than ever before. SO, why the difference? WELL, turkey behavior will give you that answer.

there's not a black and white reason that turkeys gobble....I don't know why they are quiet some days and gobble like crazy the next. I've heard good gobbling on a few days this year, I've seen the sign and lots of longbeards and hens while scouting, the turkeys are here but they are quiet on most days. I've hunted prime turkey land private and public this year and know for a fact based on sightings alone there are good numbers of toms, jakes and hens, yet they are much less vocal than last year. The weather has also been weird this spring, might have some to do with it, I don't know.

I agree there's a downward trend in harvests and we may have a problem. Twra already has said they are going to reduce fall limits in several counties this year, which I agree with. If numbers still go down then maybe cut fall hunting back to only 1 bird or close it for a few years...I love the opportunity in the fall but I will stop killing them if there is a noticeable decline. However, I don't see the population suffering here, only the male birds vocalizing has gone down from last year. This is just what I've seen where I hunt and I can't speak for anyone else in other parts of the state.


Sent from the talk of tap

 

[catman529]

I think the chicken litter has alot if not 99% to do with it, BUT from everything I've seen, they are not messing with chicken litter to prove it spreads disease. They are testing perfectly healthy birds to try to prove it isn't disease. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you ask me. ..

there's a sign on the store I saw today that says Twra is looking for turkeys to sample from certain counties. But yea someone needs to find one lying dead in a field so they can actually find the disease.

I am also convinced it is chicken scat. Can they not hot compost or cook the manure to kill everything off before spreading it?


Sent from the talk of tap

 

[Mike Belt]

If you know why gobblers gobble then you're probably the only one that does. In an area that has an abundant number of hens I can see why they may be more silent because they're already surrounded by hens. There is no need to have to call to find one. On the flip side they ought to be more vocal in areas with few hens. Aside from that, on any two back to back days in either scenario under identical weather and circumstances, on one day they may gobble all day long and the very next day go totally silent. I don't even know if the turkeys themselves know why.

 

[darn2ten]

I think the chicken litter has alot if not 99% to do with it, BUT from everything I've seen, they are not messing with chicken litter to prove it spreads disease. They are testing perfectly healthy birds to try to prove it isn't disease. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you ask me. ..

there's a sign on the store I saw today that says Twra is looking for turkeys to sample from certain counties. But yea someone needs to find one lying dead in a field so they can actually find the disease.

I am also convinced it is chicken scat. Can they not hot compost or cook the manure to kill everything off before spreading it?


Sent from the talk of tap

Well, the first problem is finding a dead turkey in the woods to test. Almost impossible with the amount of predators out there, dead bird won't lay there long. I actually heard from a guy I know in Giles about two years ago that a farmer that happened to be a turkey hunter also, found a fresh dead hen in one of his fields. Knowing about the serious decline he contacted TWRA to have the bird tested. After testing he said that it was found positive for blackhead disease, with happens in chickens. About the cleaning of the manure, they are suppose to and say they do. I ain't buying it. I actually saw chicken parts, bone pieces, and feathers spread around in a field. When chickens die in chicken houses many of them are just thrown out and piled with all the manure. Now I'm no genius, but if you incinerate manure to clean it before spreading then you dang sure ain't going to find small chicken parts and especially feathers in the field.

 

[deerchaser007]

I remember all those places you're talking about Jeremy. You may be on to something with the decline being tied to the farming practices.
Very good analogy and explanation of the vocalizations too btw. Unfortunately its all akin to casting pearls amongst swine it seems. Wonder how many would believe its possible to tell what a turkey is thinking just by looking at him?

Thanks Richard, yea I know I'm wasting my time. BUT, we gotta try! LOL,..................... I guarantee you people think your full of crap if you can tell what a turkey is thinking by looking at him. BUT, they will never learn behavior if they don't listen and watch instead of pull the trigger constantly!

 

[megalomaniac]

Blackhead disease (Histomoniasis) is caused by a protozoan (like giaridia, coccidia, trichomonas, etc). It infects the GI tract of poultry and causes internal bleeding, then eventually small broken blood vessels in the head area (hence the name, 'blackhead'). Chickens have some natural immunity to it, and can be infected with it and still do well. Turkeys, however, have a MUCH weaker immune system and are extremely susceptible to it. It's easy to look for in the birds you kill, as infected turkeys will also have black splotchy lesions on the liver, even a few days before they appear sick. Everyone should be checking livers on all birds they kill, and any which have lesions should be frozen and given to TWRA for definitive testing.

It is definetly spread via chicken manure, as chickens excrete the protozoan in feces and it lives in the ground (for sometimes up to 2 years), only to be ingested by another host and restarting it's life cycle. Fortunately, blackhead disease is NOT widespread in TN currently. It could certainly account for localized declines here and there, but is probably not responsible for the extensive decline in populations that a good portion of the state has seen.