More idiots.

[Coldfusion]

Re: More idiots.

^^^ "clean and ethical kills". You stated you are new so I will give you some info. LEAD WILL NOT KILL AT 66 YARDS. TSS is the best stuff available bar none and I still wouldn't shoot one at 60. Longbeards have really changed the game in getting lead to pattern really well but it's still lead. Hevi and tss is good till you're pattern falls apart. Longbeards don't play by that rule. They run out of energy before they run out of pattern density. In my younger days I killed 2 between 50-52 yards. It was a foot race. It didn't kill them it just stunned them long enough for me to get a boot on their head. I agree with everything setterman said. I started before the decoy game and it's went downhill ever since.

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I wasn't arguing that it should be done, I was just arguing that if you can do it then I don't see issue with it. Going back to my comment of KNOWING YOUR WEAPON SYSTEM! If the Drury brothers were able to make that kill then I don't see the issue with it. I would like to see actual ballistic testing data concerning the energy that LB carries vs regular lead at those distances. Compared to the energy required to kill a bird. If your statement saying it won't work is accurate then I'd agree it shouldn't be done, I believe when you pull the trigger it should be a kill, I despise people taking bad shots then wounded animals get away.

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That's the point I was making. No matter your weapon system lead will not kill at 66 yards. The gun or pattern density does not change the physical properties of lead

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It won't change the physical properties of lead, but the resin used to hold the shot together, the choke, even the barrel length can effect the energy that the payload carries. Even the size of the shot in theory would have a varying in velocity. I'm not claiming it's enough so I'm not arguing against you. I'm just saying I'd like to see someone with the capability to actually test this and provide numbers vs "bro-science" from the court of opinions. I don't have the answer personally, but I'd like to see some proof either way. I would think that a short barreled shotgun with no choke and shooting let's say double x would have less energy at 40 yards than a longer barrel with a tight choke shooting LB. Also shot size wise obviously larger shot carries more energy over short distance but where would the mark be where it's energy drops below that of smaller shot? And would smaller shot carry more energy over a longer distance because of less drag? There are so many variables I think this would make an awesome article.

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[catman529]

Re: More idiots.

Winchester was advertising their shells like that last year, I don't like it either. Lets admit we have all misjudged and shot at one over 60 yards. But saying the shell kills at 60 will mean people misjudge and shoot at what, 70 or 80? As a public land hunter I don't like that


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[Bone Collector]

Re: More idiots.

That was posted last year.

The LBs are great shells.

I think by me....

 

[elknturkey]

Re: More idiots.

^^^ "clean and ethical kills". You stated you are new so I will give you some info. LEAD WILL NOT KILL AT 66 YARDS. TSS is the best stuff available bar none and I still wouldn't shoot one at 60. Longbeards have really changed the game in getting lead to pattern really well but it's still lead. Hevi and tss is good till you're pattern falls apart. Longbeards don't play by that rule. They run out of energy before they run out of pattern density. In my younger days I killed 2 between 50-52 yards. It was a foot race. It didn't kill them it just stunned them long enough for me to get a boot on their head. I agree with everything setterman said. I started before the decoy game and it's went downhill ever since.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

I wasn't arguing that it should be done, I was just arguing that if you can do it then I don't see issue with it. Going back to my comment of KNOWING YOUR WEAPON SYSTEM! If the Drury brothers were able to make that kill then I don't see the issue with it. I would like to see actual ballistic testing data concerning the energy that LB carries vs regular lead at those distances. Compared to the energy required to kill a bird. If your statement saying it won't work is accurate then I'd agree it shouldn't be done, I believe when you pull the trigger it should be a kill, I despise people taking bad shots then wounded animals get away.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

That's the point I was making. No matter your weapon system lead will not kill at 66 yards. The gun or pattern density does not change the physical properties of lead

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

It won't change the physical properties of lead, but the resin used to hold the shot together, the choke, even the barrel length can effect the energy that the payload carries. Even the size of the shot in theory would have a varying in velocity. I'm not claiming it's enough so I'm not arguing against you. I'm just saying I'd like to see someone with the capability to actually test this and provide numbers vs "bro-science" from the court of opinions. I don't have the answer personally, but I'd like to see some proof either way. I would think that a short barreled shotgun with no choke and shooting let's say double x would have less energy at 40 yards than a longer barrel with a tight choke shooting LB. Also shot size wise obviously larger shot carries more energy over short distance but where would the mark be where it's energy drops below that of smaller shot? And would smaller shot carry more energy over a longer distance because of less drag? There are so many variables I think this would make an awesome article.

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A pellet traveling at 1200 fps whether from a 10ga or a 410 has the same energy. Being encapsulated in resin does not change that. There's ballistic programs that can calculate the energy and lead falls below the 1.2 ft/lbs around 50. That's not bro science. The only thing to argue is if 1.2 ft/lbs is the absolute lowest energy required. Then again who wants to be on the border. I can kill a deer with a 22 but it's not logical

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[Coldfusion]

Re: More idiots.

^^^ "clean and ethical kills". You stated you are new so I will give you some info. LEAD WILL NOT KILL AT 66 YARDS. TSS is the best stuff available bar none and I still wouldn't shoot one at 60. Longbeards have really changed the game in getting lead to pattern really well but it's still lead. Hevi and tss is good till you're pattern falls apart. Longbeards don't play by that rule. They run out of energy before they run out of pattern density. In my younger days I killed 2 between 50-52 yards. It was a foot race. It didn't kill them it just stunned them long enough for me to get a boot on their head. I agree with everything setterman said. I started before the decoy game and it's went downhill ever since.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

I wasn't arguing that it should be done, I was just arguing that if you can do it then I don't see issue with it. Going back to my comment of KNOWING YOUR WEAPON SYSTEM! If the Drury brothers were able to make that kill then I don't see the issue with it. I would like to see actual ballistic testing data concerning the energy that LB carries vs regular lead at those distances. Compared to the energy required to kill a bird. If your statement saying it won't work is accurate then I'd agree it shouldn't be done, I believe when you pull the trigger it should be a kill, I despise people taking bad shots then wounded animals get away.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

That's the point I was making. No matter your weapon system lead will not kill at 66 yards. The gun or pattern density does not change the physical properties of lead

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

It won't change the physical properties of lead, but the resin used to hold the shot together, the choke, even the barrel length can effect the energy that the payload carries. Even the size of the shot in theory would have a varying in velocity. I'm not claiming it's enough so I'm not arguing against you. I'm just saying I'd like to see someone with the capability to actually test this and provide numbers vs "bro-science" from the court of opinions. I don't have the answer personally, but I'd like to see some proof either way. I would think that a short barreled shotgun with no choke and shooting let's say double x would have less energy at 40 yards than a longer barrel with a tight choke shooting LB. Also shot size wise obviously larger shot carries more energy over short distance but where would the mark be where it's energy drops below that of smaller shot? And would smaller shot carry more energy over a longer distance because of less drag? There are so many variables I think this would make an awesome article.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

A pellet traveling at 1200 fps whether from a 10ga or a 410 has the same energy. Being encapsulated in resin does not change that. There's ballistic programs that can calculate the energy and lead falls below the 1.2 ft/lbs around 50. That's not bro science. The only thing to argue is if 1.2 ft/lbs is the absolute lowest energy required. Then again who wants to be on the border. I can kill a deer with a 22 but it's not logical

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I would argue the resin point. I don't see how it wouldn't effect the velocity. Anything that surrounds or leads a shot will effect it's ballistics. And just because it comes out at 1200fps doesn't mean that it will continue the same if there are other factors like the resin that holds the load together. The chokes can also effect this so you can't just look at the load stats. A tighter choke will cause higher pressure build up behind the load. BTW the 1.2lb/ft of pressure is that the velocity required to penetrate a birds skull?

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[LanceS4803]

Re: More idiots.

The LBs are great shells.

Agreed.
I shot a coyote at 42yds on Sunday with 3 1/2 #5 Long Beards (Mossberg 835 and Burris FF III). With the Sumtoy choke, it was a devastating hit to the head and chest.
Although this combo still patterns well at 50-55yds, for turkeys I set my personal max distance at 40yds.

 

[Gravey]

Re: More idiots.

I shoot them but not at 66 yards. I know they'll kill at 50 but prefer them at 20-30 because IMO the name of the game is to get them close.

 

[Roost 1]

Re: More idiots.

Why even start a thread like this???? :bash:

 

[Spurhunter]

Re: More idiots.

Why even start a thread like this???? :bash:

When I saw the ad I was so whizzed off I wanted someone to share in my pain. And I thought we might keep a newbie from trying it. Unfortunately the only newbie on the thread is arguing against common sense. Sorry if I offended you Rooster. :tu:

 

[Spurhunter]

Re: More idiots.

I would argue the resin point. I don't see how it wouldn't effect the velocity. Anything that surrounds or leads a shot will effect it's ballistics. And just because it comes out at 1200fps doesn't mean that it will continue the same if there are other factors like the resin that holds the load together. The chokes can also effect this so you can't just look at the load stats. A tighter choke will cause higher pressure build up behind the load. BTW the 1.2lb/ft of pressure is that the velocity required to penetrate a birds skull?

I'm going to give a little advice. Take it or leave it. You stated you are a new turkey hunter. Yet, you are the only one arguing this point with a host of veteran turkey hunters, reloaders, choke testers, etc. I've done a lot of shotgun/choke/load testing, but I don't hold a candle to some of the guys on this thread. There is a wealth of knowledge here. Learn all you can from these guys. Arguing with them is not going to help you learn.

As for a lead shell killing turkeys at 66 yards: Can it happen? Yes. There is a "magic pellet" in every box. Should you bet on a magic pellet? Absolutely not. I don't care what you call it and how fancy the box is, lead is just lead. Shooting at a turkey with lead (or anything else) at 66 yards is foolhardy, irresponsible, and unethical. You will feed many more to the coyotes than you will ever recover. If you can live with that, I can't stop you.

 

[elknturkey]

Re: More idiots.

Yes a tighter choke can cause higher pressure and more velocity but it's nil. You're talking maybe 20 fps. Barrel diameter variances can even cause higher velocity. In the end it's moot. Like comparing a 26" barrel to a 22" barrel. Yeah you gain some but nothing drastic. I don't think you understand how the resin works. It doesn't stay with the shot till impact. If it did it would be like shooting a slug. It keeps the pellets from deforming on ignition. When it passes thru the choke it shatters. 1.2 ft/lbs was determined to be the minimum to penetrate a turkeys skull. Those ballistic programs take into count the mass, velocity, surface area, hardness, etc. You have to shoot #4 lead to get the same penetration as #9 tss. The #9 tss doesn't weigh as much as the #4 lead but it's mass, hardness and smaller surface area is what allows it to penetrate. You don't even need the high velocity. The 28ga load is only 1000 fps but will kill north of 40 yards. Lead deforms on impact which slows penetration. Like shooting a fmj versus a hollow point.

Please don't take it that I'm arguing. I just like a good debate [emoji2]

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[catman529]

Re: More idiots.

Why are you all arguing about resin, ballistics, barrel length, deforming pellets, velocity, how far your gun can piss, etc....

Yes you CAN kill a turkey at 66 yards with lead shot, it was proven.

No it's NOT a good idea to try a shot that far, because it is very iffy.

If you're really concerned about it, just don't take shots that far...

 

[Roost 1]

Re: More idiots.

Why even start a thread like this???? :bash:

When I saw the ad I was so whizzed off I wanted someone to share in my pain. And I thought we might keep a newbie from trying it. Unfortunately the only newbie on the thread is arguing against common sense. Sorry if I offended you Rooster. :tu:

No offense to me, brother! Take me to MO with you and we can laugh about this non-sense the whole way.. oke:

 

[AllOutdoors]

Re: More idiots.

If the Drury brothers were able to make that kill then I don't see the issue with it.

If the Drury brothers or anyone else could could kill everyone they shot at 66 yards, then I could see why you wouldn't have an issue, but that is not the case. A sample size of ONE shot at 66 yards is not convincing to me, more like a lot of luck. I relate a kill shot at 66 yards akin to someone hitting a half court shot. While it can be done, the odds are against you, thus err on the conservative side and don't pepper the bird with shot and risk the chance of wounding him.

^^^ This

 

[elknturkey]

Re: More idiots.

Why even start a thread like this???? :bash:

When I saw the ad I was so whizzed off I wanted someone to share in my pain. And I thought we might keep a newbie from trying it. Unfortunately the only newbie on the thread is arguing against common sense. Sorry if I offended you Rooster. :tu:

No offense to me, brother! Take me to MO with you and we can laugh about this non-sense the whole way.. oke:

I'm heading to bama but we can go to mo if you want [emoji2] . Oh and the 1.2 isn't suppose to be foot lbs. It's 1.25" of penetration in ballistic gellatin [emoji12] . Been talking to car salesman all day trying to find a truck I want and I think they've fried my brain

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[Spurhunter]

Re: More idiots.

Why even start a thread like this???? :bash:

When I saw the ad I was so whizzed off I wanted someone to share in my pain. And I thought we might keep a newbie from trying it. Unfortunately the only newbie on the thread is arguing against common sense. Sorry if I offended you Rooster. :tu:

No offense to me, brother! Take me to MO with you and we can laugh about this non-sense the whole way.. oke:

I knew you weren't offended! I just wanted to call you Rooster! :rotf:

Looks like my MO trip is not going to happen. Something is going on with the outfitter. Kind of a long story, but I am probably not going. I hear there is a ton of great public land there though.

 

[Spurhunter]

Re: More idiots.

I'm heading to bama but we can go to mo if you want [emoji2] . Oh and the 1.2 isn't suppose to be foot lbs. It's 1.25" of penetration in ballistic gellatin [emoji12] . Been talking to car salesman all day trying to find a truck I want and I think they've fried my brain

Car salesmen will do that to you. Looks like my MO trip is cancalled. :cry:

How is alabama the first couple weeks? Is the public land as uncrowded as I hear?

 

[Spurhunter]

Re: More idiots.

I don't even consider those who would, knowingly, shoot at a gobbler past 40 yards, regardless of shotgun, choke, or shells. Have no respect for them as turkey hunters, period.

I fall into that category. 50 yards is my limit. I shoot 3.5" Hevishot #6s through a .660 jellyhead. I've had my forcing cone lengthened and I use a Leupold turkey scope. It will drop them like a bag of hammers at 50 yards every time. Probably farther, but 50 is my limit.

 

[edtcase]

More idiots.

Not all new turkey hunters
Are running 4x4 decoys and taking 66 yard shots at birds. I hunted 4-5 times last year without taking my shotgun to practice my calling and concealment. Just because some are new to Turkey hunting does not mean that we are destroying the sport.

 

[AT Hiker]

Re: More idiots.

Im gonna throw out a another Amen to Setterman.


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