BSK
Well-Known Member
Hmmm, that's a tough one. CAN they provide an advantage? Sure. But so does any knowledge gained from any information source. Should we ban all information sources because they can provide an advantage?
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I ise them for inventory, in that sense they help me tremendously. I know if there is a buck that I want to hunt there. That is where the advantages stop. They have never aided me in the killing of a deer.
Maybe we should ban topo maps too. They aid in deer travel more than anything.
Why play just the tip? Go all the way and ban hunting altogether. It's unfair to the animal, right? We have thumbs. We have cognition. We are the unfair advantage. At what point do these conversations reach the point of absurdity?
I don't think so. I can't speak for the cell cams because I don't use them, so my opinion on them is worthless. But for standard cams, there's zero chance they muddy the waters of fair chase. There's no way you can directly connect SD camera pics to the death of a specific deer. At the very best you can take inventory of the local deer and choose a specific deer to hunt. But you still have to hunt him.
I will concede that in a hypothetical scenario of having a pic sent to your phone real time while the animal is chowing down on a pile of corn, then perhaps if you're able to slip up & get a shot then yeah a camera can be directly attributed to a kill. That said, I'm not exactly a worthy candidate to pass judgement and say that's wrong. I wouldn't have any interest in hunting like that myself, but I can't say you'd be wrong for doing so.
That there in lies the problem. Too many people feel so self righteous that they can determine what somebody else should or shouldn't be allowed to do. Most of our laws are based on one's activity adversely affecting another. Case in point is the recent Utah law. The use of cell cameras was adversely affecting other hunters, basically destroying their hunt and causing them to lose tens of thousands of dollars hey spent on said hunt. Hunters had cause to be upset, and a law was installed to protect them. We don't have those kind of issues here. My hunting & use of cameras doesn't affect other hunters in the least. Doesn't cost them money. Doesn't destroy their hunt. So exactly what would I be doing so wrong if it doesn't hurt anybody? And who is so righteous that they can set that determination?
I don't think so. I can't speak for the cell cams because I don't use them, so my opinion on them is worthless. But for standard cams, there's zero chance they muddy the waters of fair chase. There's no way you can directly connect SD camera pics to the death of a specific deer. At the very best you can take inventory of the local deer and choose a specific deer to hunt. But you still have to hunt him.
I will concede that in a hypothetical scenario of having a pic sent to your phone real time while the animal is chowing down on a pile of corn, then perhaps if you're able to slip up & get a shot then yeah a camera can be directly attributed to a kill. That said, I'm not exactly a worthy candidate to pass judgement and say that's wrong. I wouldn't have any interest in hunting like that myself, but I can't say you'd be wrong for doing so.
That there in lies the problem. Too many people feel so self righteous that they can determine what somebody else should or shouldn't be allowed to do. Most of our laws are based on one's activity adversely affecting another. Case in point is the recent Utah law. The use of cell cameras was adversely affecting other hunters, basically destroying their hunt and causing them to lose tens of thousands of dollars hey spent on said hunt. Hunters had cause to be upset, and a law was installed to protect them. We don't have those kind of issues here. My hunting & use of cameras doesn't affect other hunters in the least. Doesn't cost them money. Doesn't destroy their hunt. So exactly what would I be doing so wrong if it doesn't hurt anybody? And who is so righteous that they can set that determination?
Good rabbit hole!
I was just thinking about OnX. I can think of a handful of big game animals that would still be alive if I didn't use OnX. It had nothing to do with being a seasoned hunter, novice or expert. It had everything to do with showing me where I can access certain public parcels that were once un-hunted.
I feel like that falls under fair chase ethos, it does mine, but game managers haven't stayed on top of this technology and it's impacts on resources.
Kind of like legalizing pot to bring in taxes and revenue?
. I agree the economics shouldn't factor into ethical hunting, what I was going for is, what do the big money corporate people think about this from their stand point?BSK
Well-Known Member
That's the ethical question of all time! Every time a new technology provides greater insight into the sport/lifestyle we love, this question gets asked. And in my opinion, that's a good thing. The definition of a "sportsman" is someone who constantly questions their own ethics. When does technology transcend the divide between woodsmanship and knowledge?
Trail cameras are a disadvantage for poachers and trespassers
Who is considering it; is the question?
I agree with this. In my world, trail cams have saved more deer lives than led to killing. I use them for survey, so I know what size/age bucks I have in the area. Rarely have I ever captured a buck on camera and used that information to kill him. I just don't hunt pieces of property that are conducive to that. I love running cameras and looking at pictures almost as much as hunting.
DeerCamp
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I just don't get caught up too much in the details.
Is there *really* a difference between hunting over a pile of corn, and hunting over a cut corn field?
There are people who don't think using deer dogs is fair chase, but does that mean I hunt rabbits unethically?
Some people shoot deer in Suburban areas, but I hunt food plots 170 yards from my house.
All that aside - you make some great personal points about what you want as a hunter (and it happens to jive with what I love).
I just think we should be VERY careful about labeling something fair chase, because I think its a very thin line between calling something "not fair chase" and "unethical".
Ethical is essentially "generally accepted standards of right or wrong" .. hunting a food plot doesn't feel wrong to me. Nor does hunting a cut corn field.
It's just not as exciting for me personally
I've been around the block a time or two & have met my share of antis. Not once have I had to explain myself or debate hunting methods the way I do with other hunters. In fact, almost every anti I've ever discussed hunting with were willing to be reasoned with. At the end of the day we could at least agree to disagree. With other hunters, however, it's either adopt their perspective and conform or else you're an unethical cheater.
The worst part for me is that most of the adverse opinions on these controversial subjects come from people who have little or no first hand experience. If you don't have adequate experience with cams then how can you have a valuable opinion one way or the other? If you've never hunted over bait, or in farm country, or with dogs, then how informed could your opinion possibly be? Some people hold hard line opinions on things they don't actually understand, to the point they won't even listen to logic. Our country as a whole is in giant mess right now because of it. In the hunting community our biggest enemy is not the antis. It's ourselves. Nobody on the planet virtue signals like hunters do to other hunters.
peytoncreekhunter
Well-Known Member
I think just a "deer hunter" wanting to manage the place he hunts by getting a survey with trail cameras of the bucks on the property is a "legitimate" survey. Maybe the hunter wants to manage by antler size or age class..... doesn't matter. The camera only shows you what was there at that particular time the photo was taken. It's no guarantee that deer (buck) will be back or that the hunter will kill it. I have lots of photos of nice bucks that I never saw in the flesh.
BSK
Well-Known Member
I would have to go back and calculate the numbers, but I've been tracking which bucks hunters see each year, and it's only a small percentage of what we know are there.
Trail cameras get a lot of praise from this guy(no clue if they are cell cams or not)...and I wonder if he actually calls his wife Martylicious ?
*are any of those hashtags at the bottom camera companies? Might be the reason for the high praises
*are any of those hashtags at the bottom camera companies? Might be the reason for the high praises
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So are you arguing that he somehow cheated, that he shouldn't be allowed to use cameras in that way? Or that cameras should be outlawed because hunters use them in that way? In other words, what's the rub?
When I read that post I feel congratulatory for the young man. Banning trail cams never crossed my mind. He outlines how the camera was useful in narrowing down the buck's habits to a huntable time frame. The camera didn't kill the buck. He still had to hunt, and notice he said the afternoon of the third day, which means the fair chase argument hardly holds water. Furthermore, if he didn't have good woodsmanship and scouting prowess, how did he know where to hang the camera? It didn't place itself. By all measures the young man is a good hunter who effectively utilized the tools at his disposal.
Now I know why your conversations with anti hunters go better than your conversations with actual hunters.
You just put a lot of words in my mouth that I didn't say, a whole lot.
I never once said cameras should be banned in this thread, ever. As a matter of fact I said the only time they should be considered for regualtion is when they have a negative impact on wildlife.
Like you have mentioned, Western states are different. My opinion on those vary as well.
The point of me sharing that post is that he gives credit to the trail camera for helping him kill the deer. People have stated cameras have not helped them kill a specific deer, this dude obviously has a different perspective.
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